Ferrari 458

CCX

AC Physics: Mini | Koenigsegg One:1
I don't know why, but I'm struggling to get the 458 sideways and hold it in a stable slide. I've tried different approaches but I always find the car either regains grip too quickly or just wants to spin round. This might partly be due to it being mid-engined, as I can hold the E92 M3 sideways all day long.

I just wondered if anyone can recommend some slight setup tweaks or a change in technique that would make the car more stable when in a slide - I can only hotlap for so long before my curiosity gets the better of me and I want to powerslide. :D

It does seem quite unpredictable at times (all aids off, with the exception of ABS and auto-clutch, as it's a paddle-shift car), which seems at odds with what I've seen and read about how it drives in real life. Is it just me, or does anyone else think the same?

Other than that though, I'm loving AC so far. By far the best sim I've ever tried.
 
What kind of model is used for the TCS?

It feels like a simple slip ratio based throttle cut... on off on off on off at a fixed frequency, simply letting higher slip ratios through on the less aggressive settings.

It's a shame that these systems are not more developed at this point. I really do hope that the KS guys do implement these systems to a much higher level of quality for any official type release.

I'm sure for the race cars this stuff isn't really so relevant, but considering much of the AC content is road cars with ESP, TCS, always on ABS etc, these systems need to be much more convincing.

I've driven quite a few high powered rwd sports cars and not one reacts anything like the F458.

This system right now feels like a 5 minute fix place holder just so you can say we have TCS.




Also I found the brake squeal quite annoying on the F458, seemed to be linear with pedal input and present from cold to hot brakes. I've never even heard an F458 brakes squealing before. Do they even squeal?



ABS seemed a bit weird too. Almost like an FF effect at a fixed frequency and very on/off, rather than a very subtle pulsing feel through the wheel. Coming to a stop in the last 2mph or so was really bad.
Surely the aligning torque forces at this point should be damped and almost zero feel from ABS? Or if it's an effect it needs damping heavily (or removing totally)

In theory you can really heard ABS in operation so don't need FF cues, ie, the tyres screeching and the thumping noise.

OK we don't have the pedal feel but even in many modern cars that is quite subtle now.

Also there seemed to be no frequency variance as we came to a stop at least in the FF feel. Maybe the tyres see something else? Canned effects mixed with correct physics?! Who knows?

AC team need to be more clear what we DO have right now, and what we don't have right now. Until then it's hard to give really valuable feedback as we might be barking up the entirely wrong tree.




As for handling balance, I suppose it's hard to know for sure but it felt a bit choppy like the car had too little inertia.

But maybe that is all FF related though. I noticed the car would get the see-saw reaction going on quite nicely like the forces were incorrect.

Given a real car has high aligning torques for self-correction that we never 'feel' unless we resist them, this is quite critical to the car reacting right and 'feeling' right... but is it even in there?

Again AC team need to be clear with what we have and don't have so far so we know what to expect and comment on.





But it's all a beta for now so room for improvement.


I do hope KS spend more time balancing content for us though. Ie, having a default G25 profile that is balanced perfectly. Apart from weight perhaps I have no preference on any other factors to do with FF.
If it's a simulation it should only feel one way. There is no choice about it.

When I get in a car I don't pick how much wind noise I have, or how squeaky brakes or, or loud tyres are, or how much damping the wheel has.

It all just 'is'... a function of the make up of the car relative to another car. That is what simulation is surely all about :D

Dave
 
- Cars that have ABS in real life will start with ABS ON in AC.
We thought a lot about letting the possibility to turn it off, and in the end we decided that you can turn it off on all cars with ctrl+A

Its very nice we can turn it off ... in many real cars you can turn ABS off just by pulling the ABS relay out ... and for me its more fun and challenging in AC to drive some cars without ABS:)
 
I don't know why, but I'm struggling to get the 458 sideways and hold it in a stable slide. I've tried different approaches but I always find the car either regains grip too quickly or just wants to spin round. This might partly be due to it being mid-engined, as I can hold the E92 M3 sideways all day long.

I just wondered if anyone can recommend some slight setup tweaks or a change in technique that would make the car more stable when in a slide - I can only hotlap for so long before my curiosity gets the better of me and I want to powerslide. :D

It does seem quite unpredictable at times (all aids off, with the exception of ABS and auto-clutch, as it's a paddle-shift car), which seems at odds with what I've seen and read about how it drives in real life. Is it just me, or does anyone else think the same?

Other than that though, I'm loving AC so far. By far the best sim I've ever tried.

For me it is quite easy to powerslide this car, feels very natural and FFB does the job very good. Just induce a bit of oversteer on entry, push the throttle, and countersteer!


This was after my first 2 or 3 laps with this car+track combo.
 
Its very nice we can turn it off ... in many real cars you can turn ABS off just by pulling the ABS relay out ... and for me its more fun and challenging in AC to drive some cars without ABS:)


I was reading this thread from the first post and i found some winning comments like that on @Paul Lock , hahah "i can sit whole day and play with the cameras" ahahah made my day bro!

However, i thought that all of you was driving without ABS and stability control on ZERO etc. And for example, with these mentioned settings, to do 1.56 with KTM @ Imola would be near impossible, but okay, after all you all used ABS :D
 
You just need some practice with 458. After first few laps in Italia with TC OFF I understood instantly why guy like Jeremy Clarkson who put ESP/TC always OFF used it ON in one of his videos...
But after some practice you discover that it's very smooth and manageable if you are treat throttle mildly and with proper respect. I think smoothness is the key word here.

If you bang! the gas pedal you can instantly see where you came from...
 
4 levels of TC?

Is this a sim or an arcade game?

Surely the simulated cars should have TC/ESP systems appropriate to the specific car only, not a global 4-choice system!?


Hmmm

Dave
Don't write stupid things when you don't know what you're talking about. 458 has 4 TC settings, just like in real car (and it behaves like in real car). BMW M3 has 1 TC setting. Some cars don't have TC at all.
 
Don't write stupid things when you don't know what you're talking about. 458 has 4 TC settings, just like in real car (and it behaves like in real car). BMW M3 has 1 TC setting. Some cars don't have TC at all.

I know exactly what I'm talking about though,

It has four settings for systems that control traction, but that is as close as the AC implementation of the F458's TC settings gets.

It's beta so I'll forgive it for now for I think they'd have been much better leaving out TC until they did it right.

Dave
 
TC isn't just turning the throttle on and off at a high frequency though.

Systems are much more complex than that.

We don't have to copy them exactly, but we can approximate them at least so it feels like the real system.

Go watch any video of the F458 being driven hard and you never see the rpms hammering up and down at high frequency due to the throttle cut.
If they made a system like that in real life it'd destroy the drive-train and probably shake the car to pieces.

It's a beta I forgive it. I just hope it improves a LOT for the final version.


Dave
 
If the framework will be there to allow us to do that kind of thing that will be very nice indeed!

In the end I guess we can make our own new F458 if we wanted with all these systems really nicely implemented.

In the end this is what I'm most excited about AC for.

Dave
 
So what ? Besides that video proving nothing of whatever you are saying, you do realize how little important it is in the grand scheme of things, do you ?

I'm pretty sure Kunos knows better than you random internet guy who never stepped into one how the TC acts on the 458, they always have one of those around their office, and they have access to way more information than one Chris Harris video imo.
 
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He clearly states that at full throttle there is no noticeable intervention. Just full throttle and the car is smooth and drivable.

In AC this is completely opposite. It's very noticeable and ultimately impacts on smooth driving with the TC aids in use.


I wouldn't mind if this was a WIP. But now we're paying for early access to the most anticipated amazing car simulator we should have ever seen I have to admit I'm pretty surprised to find something as basic as TC being done so badly.

There are basic PID logic codes for doing this kind of job. With a simple look up table for each mode you could at least tune each one to feel really nice over an afternoon.


Maybe that is to come further down the release schedule, but if that is the case I'd like to know because in the event this is as good as AC 'simulation' will get of road car features then I'll stop wasting my time and go elsewhere.

Dave
 
So what ? Besides that video proving nothing of whatever you are saying, you do realize how little important it is in the grand scheme of things, do you ?

I'm pretty sure Kunos knows better than you random internet guy who never stepped into one how the TC acts on the 458, they always have one of those around their office, and they have access to way more information than one Chris Harris video imo.
Not unimportant for him, besides if a sim is 99.999% accurate we would still argue about the last 0.001%, and even Aris said that their TC system is a bit simplified as its pure slip based, so basically more advanced then real TC systems, as you can't measure each tires slip ratio on a real car with 100% accuracy :)

I agree it's not that important. I don't go into other threads and tell people how unimportant the things that they discuss are, though - if you think it deters from the F458 discussion then maybe we should create a new thread and not argue which things to discuss are more important? :)




What kind of model is used for the TCS?

It feels like a simple slip ratio based throttle cut... on off on off on off at a fixed frequency, simply letting higher slip ratios through on the less aggressive settings.

It's a shame that these systems are not more developed at this point. I really do hope that the KS guys do implement these systems to a much higher level of quality for any official type release.

I'm sure for the race cars this stuff isn't really so relevant, but considering much of the AC content is road cars with ESP, TCS, always on ABS etc, these systems need to be much more convincing.

I've driven quite a few high powered rwd sports cars and not one reacts anything like the F458.
So what is different? As far as I can see (and what Aris said on Page 1) it detects say 0.15 slip and then cuts throttle a bit. I do not know if speed and frequency can be adjusted e.g. what happens when you go from near zero to 0.3 slip ratio quickly. Will it cut off throttle so 0.15 is reached and if how gradually? Maybe it's just too quick...?

He clearly states that at full throttle there is no noticeable intervention. Just full throttle and the car is smooth and drivable.

In AC this is completely opposite. It's very noticeable and ultimately impacts on smooth driving with the TC aids in use.


I wouldn't mind if this was a WIP. But now we're paying for early access to the most anticipated amazing car simulator we should have ever seen I have to admit I'm pretty surprised to find something as basic as TC being done so badly.

There are basic PID logic codes for doing this kind of job. With a simple look up table for each mode you could at least tune each one to feel really nice over an afternoon.


Maybe that is to come further down the release schedule, but if that is the case I'd like to know because in the event this is as good as AC 'simulation' will get of road car features then I'll stop wasting my time and go elsewhere.

Dave
If it were so easy we had completely engine maps, throttle mapping, diff, ABS and everything in every sim, so not all of that is 'easy' ;)
 
Wasting what time and go where?

I understand that people care about specific aspects of a 'simulation' (and no, a simulation of anything cannot only be done one way, it is not reality and decisions are made about ways of approximating a reality that you can never fully model). The closer that you can approximate that within the computational power that you have to hand (in real time no less, so there are going to be some pretty large approximations going on here!) then all the better, but you make decisions which are worth spending effort on for the best results.

The informed discussion about all of this is great, but I don't understand the attitude that if the developers don't do things in a certain way that I deem necessary, then it is wrong, and the whole thing an arcade. Some of the points put across are fine, but the way it is done takes away from their merit and makes the poster sound rather petulant.

Would it not be better to ask how things are being moddled, understand why that decision has been made (maybe for very good reason), and make suggestions rather than rubbishing the hard work that has been undertaken?
 
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It's not arcade, it's a real life issue. Drive a Lexus or something which isn't made for sports handling, the throttle feel won't be that great and TC system can feel too intrusive. Throttle "feel" is important and it seems TC systems isn't unimportant for some people. AFAIK it is used in some race cars in bad weather condition or on LMPs as well? So discussing doesn't hurt :)
 

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