PC1 False advertising

[Björn Spindel]

I've seen many evangelists and perhaps even the developers themselves refer to Project C.A.R.S. as a "sim" or "simulator". Normally this term is used to describe software that tries to mimic reality. There is nothing wrong with arcade racers so why not just call the game by its real name and stop trying to advertise it as something it's not? There's no shame in admitting that Project C.A.R.S. doesn't try to be realistic. There's a big market for this type of game, even bigger so than for the niche sims, so please stop trying to fool people and aim for your target audience instead.

 

[David Wright]

Just to follow up on Chronus's point on driver input and the topic of force feedback, I was interested to read a race driver give his opinion on a stock car sim saying he got little feedback from the steering wheel on real car.

 

[Xosé Estrada]

Regarding the grip I think Chronus is right, but there are more factors.

For me realism goes more about what % of what you use in the sim will work on real life. That core concepts and techniques.

I don't expect to drive a C6R at Spa in iRacing and then jump into the real car and find it the same, but I expect (and in fact I experienced it in track days) that basic things I know from real life somewhat work in a sim and viceversa.

 

[Xosé Estrada]

Just to follow up on Chronus's point on driver input and the topic of force feedback, I was interested to read a race driver give his opinion on a stock car sim saying he got little feedback from the steering wheel on real car.

In a sim the wheel is your wheel plus your butt

In real life they are divided

 

[David Wright]

But... it's the official PlayStation wheel or something, and a PlayStation game doesn't support it. That is weird.

I agree its weird. I don't know how PS wheels work. If a game has to be designed to support a particular wheel then presumably any older game won't support it which must make it difficult to sell. On the PC of course even if a new wheel isn't officially supported it will almost always work with existing titles.

 

[Senad Subasic]

Just to follow up on Chronus's point on driver input and the topic of force feedback, I was interested to read a race driver give his opinion on a stock car sim saying he got little feedback from the steering wheel on real car.

Force Feedback does not simulate real feedback you get from a wheel on a real car, it's there to give clues about stuff you can't get outside of a race car at 200 km/h.


EDIT: well, this is the best way of putting it I've ever seen

In a sim the wheel is your wheel plus your butt

In real life they are divided

 

[Chris Partridge]

Just to follow up on Chronus's point on driver input and the topic of force feedback, I was interested to read a race driver give his opinion on a stock car sim saying he got little feedback from the steering wheel on real car.

There were many complaints in iRacing when the NTM for the V8SC (IIRC), saying it had ridiculously low grip feel at the wheel. They had a driver closely involved in developing the feel of the car and he responded back that it was completely as bad as that in real life in that car!

 

[BigSilverHotdog]

For the hardcore the PC is the only place to get your sim on.

 

[Rupe Wilson]

Simbin did prove a sim will work on a xbox...
but it had a few buggs that never got patched.. come to think off it there's still things need fixing in the race 07 series..

 

[Kevin Jay]

Kevin above mixes two concepts which are different and should not be mixed: physics and "how the actual car handles".

How a car handles is the result of physics, yes, but to a large extent of setups. You can ruin a perfectly good car with a bad setup, and you can compensate (to some extent) design flaws with proper setups. No way around this: setups, being the result of the interaction of team engineers and pilot (with or without analysis of telemetry), are of vital importance in determining how a car handles.

Knowing how a car "handles" is, therefore, best conveyed by someone who actually has or has had the chance to drive it. I'm thinking about drivers such as Ben Collins or Tanner Foust who have had the opportunity of driving dozens of cars, some of them professionally, but any driver with experience should be able to elaborate on how the car "handles".

The Physics of a car (aerodynamics, chassis, tires) is assessed through telemetry and equations (models) with or without the help of specific software (think about CFD models or tire models run with a variety of software and in different platforms).

Knowing how a car handles has a human element to it, the engineering/physics of a car does not.

Great post. I agree with what you are saying. This is why I would like for people to provide detail when they are criticizing a sim. It really help to determine where the real problem lies.

 

[Kevin Jay]

I'd be surprised if you owned a car or ever drove a muscle car for example based on what you've said.

This is my ride. No more silly assumptions, Ok?

 

[Kevin Jay]

FFB is not subjective.
The FFB is not objectively in real life but only the FFB steering wheel trasmits car's movements.
There is no way in the simulation to transmit car's movements.
The FFB can be more or less strong, but there must be, and must have felt in the same way.
The same is true for physics.

The reason that I say it's subjective is because there is no basis in real life for most of what you feel. So the quality of the FFB in any game is subject to each person's opinion. That is also why i feel that it is difficult to judge the fidelity of a sim using FFB as a judging point.

 

[Chris Partridge]

The reason that I say it's subjective is because there is no basis in real life for most of what you feel. So the quality of the FFB in any game is subject to each person's opinion. That is also why i feel that it is difficult to judge the fidelity of a sim using FFB as a judging point.

What one driver says about feedback through the wheel can be completely different for another. Great example was Truli & Kovalainen.

 

[Graham Byford]

The reason that I say it's subjective is because there is no basis in real life for most of what you feel. So the quality of the FFB in any game is subject to each person's opinion. That is also why i feel that it is difficult to judge the fidelity of a sim using FFB as a judging point.

It's not entirely subjective though in my opinion, some sims do a better job of recreating the feel you get through a wheel of a real car better than others.

One part of the FFB where pCARS has always lacked feel is when the rear of the car is slipping and sliding, the wheel doesn't pull back hard enough or quick enough when compared to reality. In other games such as GSC, Netkar, Rfactor 2, Rfactor 1 (Realfeel mods) and older sims this force is much stronger and better communicates what the rear of the car is doing and is much closer to what I feel in reality.

Understeer is another one, some games including pCARS make the ffb weight almost disappear during understeer moments where in reality I've never experienced this on the road or racetrack to such a degree.

Some people like canned effects though and I can understand there place but for me personally all I want to feel in a sim is what I feel when on the track in similar situation.

 

[Klazerman]

Sorry guys for the long winded post.

Thank you for taking the time to write such an extensive reply. A lot of info to process

 

[David Ignjatovic]

I'm sorry but the inside sim racing sim index is a joke.

Maybe it is, and maybe they're heavily biased, but I got the idea for the sim index from them, and it makes sense to use something like this when judging a sim, otherwise what gaming review score would we give GSC with 5-6 cars?

Same with netkar pro.....nothing special as a pick up and play game, but as a sim, it scores very highly.

 

[David Ignjatovic]

That is also why i feel that it is difficult to judge the fidelity of a sim using FFB as a judging point.

The FFB is what brings the car behaviour to life, and also acts as our early warning system regarding grip levels, as such, the more detailed the FFB, the more we can control the car as we do real cars.

Real life is 1:1, so any sim that gets close to giving us this level of feel is on the right track, and that must come thru the wheel and synchronize with the pedals....GSC does this extremely well, and so does Simbin in many of their cars.

 

[David Ignjatovic]

http://www.virtualr.net/this-week-inside-sim-racing-september-1st

The boys are back in town, ISR's latest ytube vid.
I'm sure the guys at VR simply forgot to load the last episode.

 

[Kazumi]

But... it's the official PlayStation wheel or something, and a PlayStation game doesn't support it. That is weird.

Which game are we talking about? I think wheels on console need "full" software support while on PC older sims sometimes work with newer wheels (or you can even map other games controls to wheel, just no FFB if that isn't provided of course). So the console game need to detect the wheel and communicate with it properly.

 

[Senad Subasic]

Which game are we talking about? I think wheels on console need "full" software support while on PC older sims sometimes work with newer wheels (or you can even map other games controls to wheel, just no FFB if that isn't provided of course). So the console game need to detect the wheel and communicate with it properly.

That Test Drive Ferrari thing.

 

[Kazumi]

I see. Looks like they couldn't upgrade the code / wheel detection for that specific wheel then.

As I said I don't think anything works "automatic" on consoles like it does on some PC programs, which can adapt output made for other wheels (or technically, the wheel just uses output not made / tweaked for it specifically) . With a compatibility mode on wheel that should work though.