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F1 standings if cheats were actually punished.

Discussion in 'Formula 1' started by Chris Hempsall, Nov 6, 2012.

  1. Chris Hempsall

    Chris Hempsall

    How the standings would look if Red Bull were punished for all the rules they break.

    Round 1 Australia - 0 points (Illegal holes in floor)
    Round 2 Malaysia - 0 points (Illegal holes in floor)
    Round 3 China - 0 points (Illegal holes in floor)
    Round 4 Bahrain - 0 points (illegal holes in floor)
    Round 5 Spain - 0 points (illegal holes in floor)
    Round 6 Monaco (Last race with illegal holes in floor. FIA declared them illegal after Monaco)
    Round 7 Montreal - 0 points (Driver adjusted ride height between Qualy and Race, deemed illegal by FIA)
    Round 8 Europe - 12 points
    Round 9 Great Britain - 40 points
    Round 10 Germany - 0 (Engine mapping deemed illegal by FIA)
    Round 11 Hungary - 15 points
    Round 12 Belgium - 26 points
    Round 13 Italy 0 (Double retirement, no illegalities)
    Round 14 Singapore - 25 points
    Round 15 Japan - 0 (Flexi-wing)
    Round 16 Korea - 43
    Round 17 India - 40
    Round 18 Abu Dhabi - 0 (Rubber, flexi, super wing)

    Constructor Standings

    Ferrari - 340
    McLaren - 318
    Lotus - 288
    Red Bull - 201
    Mercedes - 136

    Driver Standings

    Fenando Alonso - 245
    Kimi Raikonnen - 198
    Lewis Hamilton - 165
    Jenson Button - 153
    Sebastian Vettel - 123
    Felipe Massa - 95
    Nico Rosberg - 93
    Romain Grosjean - 90
    Mark Webber - 78
    Sergio Perez - 66
    Kamui Kobayashi - 58

    I have amended all the results only in which either the FIA has deemed something illegal, or there is concrete video evidence of illegal components on the car.

    I can imagine the flexi-wings have also visited Korea and India, but cant prove it, so included the points they won there.

    I also looked for all technical infringements by the other teams, just to make it fair, and, what do you know, after 2 hours of searching, couldn't find any.
    • Like Like x 4
  2. The wholes appeared afaik first at Bahrain and were declared as legal by the FIA. Only after Monaco FIA changed their mind because other teams were protesting.

    In Montreal ist was rumoured that RB had a system which allows them to easily siwtch the ride hight. That would be not leagel.
    However noone claimed that they have used it during parc ferme.
    The engine mapping was declared as illiegal after Germany.

    The flexi wings pass the FIA test so they are comform with the rules. If the FIA thinks the rules are misinterpreted they change the rules and the test.

    I can't belive I am defending RB, but they with the facts.
    • Like Like x 1
  3. srry hit the wrong button, can be deleted
  4. Chris Hempsall

    Chris Hempsall

    The holes were always there. It was Bahrain that rival teams asked FIA for clarification and it was Monaco where that clarification came.

    The Engine mapping was deemed illegal after Germany. But they raced with it, so they raced illegally no?
  5. FIA told them to race with that Engine map for Germany and remove it from Next race
    If they told them to remove it before the race they will do it.
  6. Chris Hempsall

    Chris Hempsall

    So they used something illegal. As the title says. ''If cheats were actually punished.''

    Yeah they were told they could race with it, but it was still deemed illegal, they just managed to get away with it. The FIA was nice to them.

    Same with the holes in the floor. Raced with it, was told it was illegal, and stopped. But they still raced with it.
  7. you don't produce or create a Part or Device thinking it will be illegal. They believe it was Legal under the reg book. It will be Deemed legal or Illegal only after the test.
    You must Blame FIA for that not Redbull
    If the Part/Device Passes the test then it was Legal.
    Redbull used the Floor since Bahrain and it was deemed illegal only after Monaco Race it means it passed the test in Bahrain,Spain and Monaco.
    But If the Floor was Illegal then why FIA did pass it as Legal on the Previous races.

    About Mapping : "It states that the Map must be less than or equal 10% or something(don't remember the Exact value) of the first 4 races and not much than that."
    So what any one can do it a Team uses the Map in the Maximum way to get Most use in first 4 races and Using it at the rate under the Regs after wards to get Advantage
    Being Innovative is not cheating. If you want to punish them then You must make the Rules pretty clear.
    • Like Like x 1
  8. Chris Hempsall

    Chris Hempsall

    Yes, I understand the rules must be readable and not open to abuse, yet they are, and that is the FIA's fault, you're right about that.

    But after seeing Red Bull's nose as Abu Dhabi, it makes me also wonder what they haven't been caught doing.

    There is one way to make Carbon Fibre bend. It's a technique still in research using electric pulses, so I've been told by another person clued up on the subject.

    So...... At Abu Dhabi, Red Bull have either
    a) Clearly cheated
    b) Are at the forefront of modern science. Who needs CERN eh? We've got Red Bull.

    But yes, Red Bull need to be reeled in by a clear set of rules that are un-breakable.
  9. Im confused, is it not illegal until the FIA finaly deems it illegal, so docking their points for the holes in the floor shouldn't happen, since after the rule was cleared up they got rid of it. Etc, etc. Otherwhise you would have to dock every cars points for the season you've just had because something is deemed illegal the season next.
  10. We Need to wait about the Result But one thing for sure Redbull was always Trying to stay ahead of Others with their Knowledge brain. Only FIA can stop them But In My view F1 Must be in two kind of ways
    1.Innovative more than this Just like Allowing teams to create their Very own Devices and every thing so that Every one can fight with others.
    The Best team can win with Innovative and Reliable car.
    2. Lets have the Perfect REG book so that no one can find a loop hole and every team will have to do every thing under rules.
    • Like Like x 1
  11. This. If it's deemed illegal after a race, that means that it's illegal from every race on from that. With these sorts of things, you can't retroactively apply penalties for parts that were legal at the time...
    • Like Like x 3
  12. Bram

    Roaring Pipes Maniacs | #27 Staff Premium Member

    Isnt the FIA approving any new upgrades up front before they are being put on a race car during an official weekend?

    Its a very Interesting WDC and WCC table with this theory Chris Hempsall.
  13. That can be seen 2 ways.

    1) The rule didn't specify that something was illegal, and perhaps only hinted at it. After the race, it is deemed illegal, and the ruling is changed. In this case, I don't think you can punish the team for something that is unclear, and that in fact wasn't illegal until after the race. (I think this happened in Germany, the engine maps weren't against the regulation itself, so they were legal at the race, but after that the ruling on engine mapping was clarified and it was made illegal).

    2) The rule was clearly broken, and they ran the race with an illegal car, and were found out afterwards. In this case, the team is fully responsible, and they should lose any points they had.

    Now, Red Bull excels in 2 things. Aerodynamics engineering, and loopholes. With the engine maps, with the floor holes (since the regulation said it only allowed enclosed holes in the floor in the front, but doesn't explicitly forbide having them in the back, they were a grey zone). So most of the things they do, are legal but will become illegal as soon as it is known how they do it. They get away with it because they aren't clear-cut things. To be honest, the regulation is kind of a joke, the FIA should get someone to fix all the loopholes because there are way too many.
  14. Saying that Red Bull should be punished for Germany when their engine maps were banned after Germany is just like saying McLaren should be punished for their F-Duct in 2010 because it was illegal in 2011.
    • Like Like x 2
  15. I won't count Red Bull/Vettel as a champions if they clinch the title (which is most likely). They made too unrealistic step forward in Singapore which strangely coincidences with another piece of pivoting wing rumours. Scraping floor plank in India which strangely dissapeared and now these rubber nosecones. Why they still not DQ'ed is beyond my understanding.
  16. i agree with Micheal and also Most importantly every one on the World wants to think out side the Box and with out that we can't beat others in any respect.
    Redbull racing doing the same here but saying it was cheating is not correct. They are always trying to Get the Advantage by Finding the grey areas or Finding the Values with in the Rule book for their Package.
  17. It was because they are under the rules You can't say they are illegal just because you saw Sparks from the floor and Nosecone.
    Those cars passed the tests of FIA. you can't get some one DQ just because you don't like them.
  18. Chris Hempsall

    Chris Hempsall

    Not really though is it. you're talking about 2 seperate seasons. I'm talking about one week to the next.
  19. Chris Hempsall

    Chris Hempsall

    3.15 Aerodynamic influence :
    With the exception of the driver adjustable bodywork described in Article 3.18 (in addition to minimal parts solely associated with its actuation) and the ducts described in Article 11.4, any specific part of the car influencing its aerodynamic performance :

    - Must comply with the rules relating to bodywork.
    - Must be rigidly secured to the entirely sprung part of the car (rigidly secured means not having any degree of freedom).
    - Must remain immobile in relation to the sprung part of the car.

    Any device or construction that is designed to bridge the gap between the sprung part of the car and the ground is prohibited under all circumstances.

    No part having an aerodynamic influence and no part of the bodywork, with the exception of the skid block in 3.13 above, may under any circumstances be located below the reference plane.
  20. Chris Hempsall

    Chris Hempsall

    So. Theres the rules. They 100%, without any doubt, cheated at Abu Dhabi and Suzuka at least.

    I'd put money on India and Korea having the same components, but as I said can't prove it.

    At the end of the day, I have learned 3 things about RBR.

    1) They will break the rules without even a second though
    2) They don't even care. In fact, they're probably laughing.
    3) I was torn, but now it is quite clear. Vettel is as good as his cheating car. He won't even get close to the list of greats until he wins at least 2 world championships with another team.

    I however DO NOT blame Newey. There's a couple of things that must play on his mind.

    Maybe Ayrton still plays on his mind. Maybe he thinks ''What if I had just cheated, like Benetton that season. What if the car had TC, like the Benetton? Would Ayrton be alive today, or at least survived Imola? Probably

    I think since 1994, Newey has decided to be the cheat, instead of being the victim of the cheat. And you know what? If I was in the same position, I may have the same attitude.

    Imagine if he built a car adamantly sticking by the regulations, whilst every other bugger is trying to get aroudn them, and then Vettel or Webber has a massive crash trying to keep pace (a la Senna). That would be a hard blow to take twice.