Dispensing with the sandbags.

[Lars Hansen]

I'm not entirely sure how to do this politely, to be honest.
Then again, I'm not racing much these days due to time-constraints, so I don't have any particular personal stake in it.
So I'm just going to state a personal opinion, and people can take it for whatever they like.

But can we please get people to stop sandbagging during qualification in the Club races?
I'm not out to start a witch-hunt, so I'm not naming any names. This is simply a general observation.
I started noticing it a few months ago, and now it's becoming just blatantly obvious.
I get that it's a way to challenge yourself against what might be a weaker field, and if you have a YT channel, I'm sure it makes for exhilarating viewing for your followers.

Unfortunately, it also means that you regard the rest of the Club racers as nothing more than cannon-fodder, which is not only f*cking annoying, it's also arrogant to the point of contempt.
Besides, you're not fooling anybody. Once you've raced against the same people 3-4 times you get a pretty good idea of their pace, which means that now you have a bunch of people in front of you who know they'll have to let you through at some point. And if some of these people are newcomers or simply less experienced, you've just increased the chances of a racing incident manifold, for no reason whatsoever.

You wouldn't do it if this was a league-race.
You wouldn't do it if there was a MP ranking-system in place.
So pretty please, with sugar on top.......

<mod-edit: removed foul language>

 

[PresidentSmug]

RD: "Thanks for meeting with us Georg, we have a serious problem"
Georg:"What's going on?"
RD: "Take a seat. We need you to stop skipping qualifying sessions and starting from the back
Georg:"Huh"?!? Raises left eyebrow. "Why"?
RD: "We've had complaints, disrespect, arrogance and unsporting behaviour have been thrown about".
Georg: "I'll be bored as f***, if I do qualifying I'll just end up first and race no one for the entire race. Also my video's will also look boring and no one will watch. People want to see me race not hot lap"
RD: "That may be true but a new member fainted due to the pressure you applied to them during your last race, new members losing consciousness is bad for business".
Georg: "But how can i improve my race craft with no one to race"?
RD: "You better prey Ferdinand Letchner is racing too"
Georg leaves
RD: ""

 

[jimortality]

So it's not ok for people to stream their races but RD can stream and/or put the videos on Youtube later whenever they want without asking for permission? That's insane.

I'd like to know the answer to this.

 

[BBKing212]

I am reading this thread and thinking is this racing club or Sunday "walking" club?
I've participated in a race on Sunday (14.01.2018), where in Lap 1, T1 I've clipped the car I didn't see and spun. Luckily I didn't collect anyone with me.
So according to some comments here, what should a racer do this situation? Be last, or try to gain places? Well, I've went to gain places, which means that I've safely overtake slower racers. I was also chasing one guy for several laps before he did a mistake and I could overtake him. What was the cause of his mistake I don't know. Was it a pressure? It could be one of the factors, but not the only one!
It does not matter on which position racer is, there is always someone behind him who is making pressure to racer in front of him..

What I want to say, what is the difference with above experience and if fellow racer starts from behind. I don't see it, as long as they pass cleanly and with "respect". With respect I mean, not to push them selves in tight spaces just to pass. Still, we have to look for our newcomers

To our newcomers here is a tip, I've read on RD:
* Don't mind the car behind you, as the racer behind you has to do the work to overtake you. You have to watch and defend your line
* Don't mind the car in front of you. If you race like racer in front of you, you are bound to make same mistakes as he is
* Be relaxed, race and enjoy it

P.S. @Georg Ortner as he was single out, I can only say, that he is a great racer and always passed me cleanly.
P.P.S. I've used word racer intentionally and not the driver, as we are on racedepartment and we are racing, not driving

 

[natedogg1867]

Well, as an outsider to the RD premium stuff... this clearly shows why I will never consider going premium.

Why even run events if you dont want to allow passing, and you get chuffed if someone a bit faster passes you cleanly? It's no sweat off your back, and the whole point of racing is to race...

To specifically target a developer for the game you are playing is asinine. That's a great way to ostracize him and make him want to leave your site entirely. And Im sure a fair amount of people have seen his streams and seen him freely advertise RD.

What gets me though, is the sheer hypocrisy and authoritarian nature this place is run.

RD runs a ton of events and streams their fair share. Did they ask every single driver for explicit permission to be streamed? What about those big RDLMS streams with 50+ guys? Hell no.

This really reads as though, "You guys paid for a membership to race, so therefore you are bound by a contract where we can do this because we say so, but you cant."

Might be a good time to go around asking anyone that is in an RD stream if they were asked for permission, and start asking for takedowns when they clearly never gave permission.

Beyond that, why is that even a rule? There is no policy on any website that forbids streaming others. Youtube wouldnt exist if that were the case, and Twitch's hundreds of millions of members that stream plenty of identifiable info would have been sued out of existence.

If you want to step back into the stone age and ban something that isnt a problem, that is a good way to alienate users, and stifle awareness of your site.

This is not the kind of publicity you want for your site.

 

[Case_]

To specifically target a developer for the game you are playing is asinine.

To be fair, there's quite a few comments along the lines of "you've singled out Georg of all people" here and I just feel the need to point out that it didn't actually happen, at least not directly. Lars did not mention anyone in his original post and we just started using Georg as an example after he himself "took the blame", so to speak. He wasn't the only one to admit to not qualifying on purpose, he was just the most visible one to do so.

 

[UMC 22]

The simple fact is that this discussion has been taken completely off the rails. People on both sides of the argument are cherry-picking individual lines and words, totally out of context, so that they can justify feeling put out and sticking the boot in to the opposing side. It really does make sad reading, and I for one will not be commenting on this issue any further in this particular thread.

About this ridiculous streaming "issue", stop whining. Get on TS (as per our rules) and say "anyone object if I stream this race with TS included?" It takes less than three seconds to say that line, and it'll take less than five seconds to get a response. If nobody objects, you've complied with our rule so go ahead with your stream.

I've done that four times over the last week and guess what? Not one objection. Way to make a mountain out of a bloody molehill, people.

 

[Case_]

About this ridiculous streaming "issue", stop whining. Get on TS (as per our rules) and say "anyone object if I stream this race with TS included?" It takes less than three seconds to say that line, and it'll take less than five seconds to get a response. If nobody objects, you've complied with our rule so go ahead with your stream.

But the rules literally require you to "get permission from all the drivers in the session". Doing what you propose is not the same - you are NOT getting a permission from all the drivers in the session by doing so. In an ideal situation, you're getting a permission from those that are currently present at the time you're asking, and honestly, you'll be really lucky to even get a response from those. I know because I've tried it in the past with including TS, and not a single time I did try that did I get a reaction from *everyone*. Not a single time. Therefore I simply stopped including TS, because it was the easier option to choose. Now that we have to also ask for permissions to even include drivers names, such easy option is no longer available for obvious reasons.

If what you suggest is acceptable (and since you've been doing it like this with your streams, it would suggest it is, given that you're staff and you shouldn't be breaking your own rules), then RD should change the rules from "unless you have permission from all the drivers in the session to stream it" to "unless you announce on TS or in the race thread you'll be streaming/recording before you start" (or something along those lines).

This is not nitpicking - it's a significant difference. The rules as they currently are are literally impossible to follow, and by doing so, invite people to make their own interpretations, just like you did. The rule, as it is right now, is pretty much only there to either be misinterpreted or broken.

 

[natedogg1867]

To be fair, there's quite a few comments along the lines of "you've singled out Georg of all people" here and I just feel the need to point out that it didn't actually happen, at least not directly. Lars did not mention anyone in his original post and we just started using Georg as an example after he himself "took the blame", so to speak. He wasn't the only one to admit to not qualifying on purpose, he was just the most visible one to do so.

Yeah, that's a fair point.

The first post didnt specifically call anyone out, but as the thread went on a page or two, I got the sense that there were some specific names that were in mind.

There are only so many fast guys, so that list is probably pretty small. And as you say, Georg just happened to take focus early on.

 

[UMC 22]

Then don't stream. Two staff members have told you what's ok and what's not, but if you still feel you "can't" stream then that's really up to you guys. I'll still be streaming myself using the method me and Bram mentioned, so feel free to report all my videos to YouTube if you like.

I think Georg took the focus from some as he was first to respond. He was the most vocal early on. For the record, Georg is actually the one driver that does this that I have never had an issue with whatsoever.

 

[Neilski]

It has always been the rule to ask for permission to stream. It's really bad practice to just fire up streams and disclose private discussions on teamspeak and real names without people knowing or giving consent.

You can clearly ask for permission in teamspeak before the start of the race and if people don't answer or object there are no issues. But not asking permission is a breach of privacy.

Inform and ask for persmission is a much better solution than having your videos flagged on Youtube.

Well, as Ross says, the approach that he and Bram have mentioned is a pretty clear guide as to how you should interpret the new version of the rule. (See quote above - emphasis is mine.) When the guy that literally wrote the rule tells you how to interpret it, you can treat that as gospel
I'm not a lawyer either, and like Martin I wouldn't personally interpret the wording of the new rule as being quite compatible with the approach that Bram and Ross are taking, but like I say - the guidance is crystal clear now

 

[Case_]

Then don't stream. Two staff members have told you what's ok and what's not, but if you still feel you "can't" stream then that's really up to you guys. I'll still be streaming myself using the method me and Bram mentioned, so feel free to report all my videos to YouTube if you like.

You could also rephrase the rule so there would be no such issue and requirements for any side explanations what it actually means, as per my suggestion. A rule that has to be explained (with the explanation being notably different than the actual wording of the rule) is simply not a good rule, I'm sorry.

But I'll take your advice in the meantime, I guess. It's a shame, though. I really enjoyed doing my part in supporting RD.

Also, I don't understand why I should be reporting your videos *to YouTube* for you not following the RD club rules. I might think about reporting you to RD staff for that, but there's obviously no point in me doing so, since you are staff yourself (and even if the issue would get escalated, the most that would happen would be it would end up with Bram, who shares your opinion on the matter and wrote the rule himself, so there's literally no point of me doing that, even if I decided to go through with it).

 

[Case_]

BTW, ouf of curiosity - what would happen if I say I don't give you my permission to stream/record TS and/or my name?

Am I right in assuming I would be told to leave the race, just like I was now told to stop streaming if I have issues with the wording of the new rule? I don't intend to do that (I'd rather just not sign for the races in the first place than childishly boycott them like this), but I am genuinely curious.

 

[natedogg1867]

Also, I don't understand why I should be reporting your videos *to YouTube* for you not following the RD club rules. I might think about reporting you to RD staff for that, but there's obviously no point in me doing so, since you are staff yourself (and even if the issue would get escalated, the most that would happen would be it would end up with Bram, who shares your opinion on the matter and wrote the rule himself, so there's literally no point of me doing that, even if I decided to go through with it).

If there is a club rule that says no streaming if someone didnt give explicit permission... I agree. Why would you go whine to youtube about that? They wont do anything.

Kind of defeats the entire purpose if you can just ignore the rule and stream anyone anyway, since youtube will never take it down lol.

But I guess the point then is, since you pay to play, RD will just ban you. So, not only is the rule worthless, but you'll be banned if you break it.

 

[RasmusP]

But I guess the point then is, since you pay to play, RD will just ban you. So, not only is the rule worthless, but you'll be banned if you break it.

Just to this: sure you can argue about the wording but I paid for premium because it's just my part to pay for the servers etc.
For me, personally that is not pay to play. It's like grabbing a beer together with friends and calling it "pay to have friends".
Which can lead to a whole discussion for the questioning of social networking and if you would still have friends if you won't pay anything for activities with them you don't truly enjoy for yourself too but for the moment:

I highly disagree with that wording!

BTW I'm tempted to gift you a month of premium from my own money just so you can see how nice the racing clubs are. This thread is like the 1% bad part of it blown up to something ugly. Stating that this thread shows why someone isn't racing with us is like dumping your perfect girlfriend because she has an ugly toe

 

[JoelK]

This thread is like the 1% bad part of it blown up to something ugly. Stating that this thread shows why someone isn't racing with us is like dumping your perfect girlfriend because she has an ugly toe

Amen.

 

[ICYHOT]

Christian G was here and lolled.

 

[ICYHOT]

Oh, and @Martin Fiala , in case you haven't lost your faith in humanity by now, the position bar in Raceroom features four modes: Off, car ahead and behind, position only and position + name. F.e.:

If you use any but the last option (and disable the driver names above cars) that displaying sb's name issue (still, lol) should be solved.

You can set those modes either on the pre-race/pause menu

or bind a key (f.e. you can replace the default hotkey for toggling the pos bar on/off, which is the 8 key) to this function

in order to toggle through those modes while driving.

 

[Case_]

Oh, and @Martin Fiala , in case you haven't lost your faith in humanity by now, the position bar in Raceroom features four modes: Off, car ahead and behind, position only and position + name. F.e.:

I am aware. But I want to be able to see the names while I'm racing, and it's also not the only place where the names might show up in game. I tried blocking all of the relevant spots I could remember before tonight's race by putting a rectangle over them (like the game chat, which means covering part of the virtual mirror, or the spot where penalties show up, which means putting a large rectangle below the mirror), and it ended up looking really stupid and annoying, and it still wouldn't be a universal solution. So in the end I just cancelled the stream entirely.

And that's still just one game out of several.

Also, as I've realized while uploading tonight's race, technically, you can't even include Crew Chief calls now in your video/stream without getting everyone's permission, as he sometimes calls the drivers by name.

So...yeah. Thank you for trying, but I guess I'm done. Not worth the effort.

 

[ICYHOT]

Right, penalties, didn't consider those. Well, nvm then.

 

[balage06]

What I really don't understand about the sim racing community is when a problem like this comes up, why should we always solve it by basically lowering the standards?

I mean, if you are a newcomer and feel uncomfortable around faster guys, or even get nervous while being recorded by others, it's absolutely fine. I've been there too. But in these cases, you should at least have the motivation to change this as soon as possible, otherwise what's the point? And I'm relatively new here too, but I'm pretty sure everyone will try to help you in the process if they can.

When a similar problem came up in another community I occasionally race with, they reacted with organizing so called "squad" events, where pace is irrelevant and the focus is on wheel-to-wheel action. The squad leader's task is keeping the squad together by driving at the front with an average pace and try to defend his position from the followers, and the other members try to take the leadership (without making contact of course). And if someone crashes out in the process, he/she can just catch up with the squad and practice further. It might sound ridiculous at first, but they turned out to be fun events.