Deduct points instead of time penalties.

[Tom Ilsbroux]

This has been mentioned before but realy think we should look into this again.
The current WAR system is very good as it doesn't put the responsability with just a few people, and it takes into account the oppinion of the Teams. (altough the involved parties shouldn't be allowed to vote)
But time penalties don't work for a few reasons :
- The effect of the penalty to is random, guys finishing at the top will almost always get penalised more as there the time gaps in the result are smaller. Look at RPM they usually are affected more with a penalty then other teams, as they ussualy finish high up. No disrespect to ANE but rarely they will have any affect, just look at the latest inicent report.
- The voting itself may be influenced as the the TS may look at the time gaps see which penalty has an effect. This leads to a voting not beeing consistend.
- Some drivers might even not repport a incident as the other driver might have a DNF and then there is a big chance there is no real penalty given anyway.
Therefore i think it would be better to deduct points, this would give a more fair and equal system in my view.
Same incident should get same penalty, and not the random penalty we have now.

Can we have a discussion about this ?

 

[Ben Buitendijk]

Good idea Tom! I find the part about the consistency of the penaltys very important as there has been some discussion about that in the past already and this is a very good solution!

 

[Eckhart von Glan]

sounds good to me too. However, the backbone of the current system is the "no discussion" rule and the mandatory vote, whether we deduct points or seconds is a secondary issue to me. If we change, we should do it exactly halfway through the tournament.

 

[Grégory Cogotti]

Good idea, it should be nice for next season.

 

[Xosé Estrada]

Interesting.

I see your points and I agree on the big difference in consequences depending on race circumstances, I think that's a fact.

I have two main questions:

- Do you have a "scale" proposal we can discuss about?

- Would be fair to introduce it now that two races are gone?

Cya!

 

[Tom Ilsbroux]

Interesting.

I see your points and I agree on the big difference in consequences depending on race circumstances, I think that's a fact.

I have two main questions:

- Do you have a "scale" proposal we can discuss about?

- Would be fair to introduce it now that two races are gone?

Cya!

No real scale in mind. Don't go overboard thought , with current system its rarely someone looses more then 2 places, even with a 60sec penalty.

Won't change much if we start right as now teams loose points also only more now its more random. So apart from it beeing more consistent there isn't any big change, so yes it i would do asap as i see it as a fairer system.

 

[David Garcia]

It is a good idea, I will seat down and think about how to implement the current system.

I mean a scale model would be like 60 Seconds Penalty /or 5 points in the case the time penalty have no effect. I will come with a serious proposal during the week.

In my opinion we should apply it sinde half the seasson as Ekchart suggested or even from Blue Cup 2011 onwards, we will vote and consider it ponce you see and judge the proposal. Thanks for bringing it on Tom.

 

[Tom Ilsbroux]

It is a good idea, I will seat down and think about how to implement the current system.

I mean a scale model would be like 60 Seconds Penalty /or 5 points in the case the time penalty have no effect. I will come with a serious proposal during the week.

In my opinion we should apply it sinde half the seasson as Ekchart suggested or even from Blue Cup 2011 onwards, we will vote and consider it ponce you see and judge the proposal. Thanks for bringing it on Tom.

Thank you David.

Just to clarify in no means my goal was to punish the teams/drivers more.

 

[Flavio Borgna]

I agree with Tom, and if the new method is introduced asap we avoid random penalty soon.
:doublethumb:

 

[Andreas Hultgren]

Two things popped in my little brain reading this thread. 1) Do not use it this season. Go for next one if you want to change. Changing rules mid-season feels wrong when you look back on it. If it would have been implemented earlier the standings might have come out differently etc. From a fair point of veiw I would go for next season. 2) If fans, or drivers for that matter, want to look at previous results there might be confusion as I suppose points penalty wont show in the results boards? (Btw, does the time penalty show in the results boards?)

Otherwise I like the idea but for me I hope that the penalty will be seen i.e. a year after when looking at results. Hope you get what I mean, I harldy do

 

[Tom Ilsbroux]

Two things popped in my little brain reading this thread. 1) Do not use it this season. Go for next one if you want to change. Changing rules mid-season feels wrong when you look back on it. If it would have been implemented earlier the standings might have come out differently etc. From a fair point of veiw I would go for next season. 2) If fans, or drivers for that matter, want to look at previous results there might be confusion as I suppose points penalty wont show in the results boards? (Btw, does the time penalty show in the results boards?)

Otherwise I like the idea but for me I hope that the penalty will be seen i.e. a year after when looking at results. Hope you get what I mean, I harldy do

At this moment nothing is seen in the results, as its made by Autosim Analyser.
This is something which i have asked before.
Simple table with points earned race by race, easy to include the penalties in there.
I going to make on for my guys, as at this moment, a driver doesn't even know if he earned point when he got a DNF but still did 75% of the distance. A team doesn't even know how many points they earned in the races unless they remembered previous standings.

Also i don't understand why i can't be done right away. Now points are lost also when a time penalty is given.
Don't see the difference apart from it being more consistent, the penalties shouldn't be harder.
We have to ask, do we realy want to continue voting for penalties like the incident with BVM vs ANE ?

 

[Andreas Hultgren]

At this moment nothing is seen in the results, as its made by Autosim Analyser.
This is something which i have asked before.
Simple table with points earned race by race, easy to include the penalties in there.
I going to make on for my guys, as at this moment, a driver doesn't even know if he earned point when he got a DNF but still did 75% of the distance. A team doesn't even know how many points they earned in the races unless they remembered previous standings.

Also i don't understand why i can't be done right away. Now points are lost also when a time penalty is given.
Don't see the difference apart from it being more consistent, the penalties shouldn't be harder.
We have to ask, do we realy want to continue voting for penalties like the incident with BVM vs ANE ?

Just not a fan of rule changes of this kind during a season, that's all.

Another one I thought of now: Say that the winner have won in an unfair way, knocking someone off. He gets a 10 points penalty but keeps his win? A win like that can be (if it is a close champinship) the decider in a tiebreaker. If a time penalty come into play he will most likely lose the win. Get my drift? That is another reason that changing a rule like this in season can be missleading when looking back on it.

 

[David Garcia]

I agree with Andreas, in the case of applying a new format it would be from next seasson onwards. I had next idea for the incident polls:

No penalty
2 points less *
4 points less *
6 points less *
8 points less *
10 points less + no qualy in next race *
12 points less + 1 Car DQ for next race *

* Points are lost from the team points in the overall standings

2) If fans, or drivers for that matter, want to look at previous results there might be confusion as I suppose points penalty wont show in the results boards? (Btw, does the time penalty show in the results boards?)

Well, it is applied in the main standings, and Team Spokesmen knows the reasson why for sure.

 

[Xosé Estrada]

Andreas, the standings show always the real standings, penalties included, I update them after the race and again after the penalties are set.

We only had to update 2 incidents to be able to start with the new points system now, the ones from the first round.

The equivalences are:

No penalty / No penalty
+15 sec / -2 points
+30 sec / -4 points
+60 sec / -6 points
No points / - 8 points
No points no Q / -10 points and no Q
No points and DQ / -12 points and DQ

As both systems have a 7 degree scale, we can easily convert the first race incidents to this one, and do the same for this weekend so we can jump into this new system that is clearly more fair.

What it was considered a "level 3" incident before can be considered a "level 3" incident now, as you are not supposed to check if +30 secs had any effect or not before.

 

[Rickard Hellsten]

We have to ask, do we realy want to continue voting for penalties like the incident with BVM vs ANE ?

Atm thats my "biggest" concern, as hard racing needs to be allowed, The BVM vs ANE incident is pure racing incident, both could have helped so the incident never happend, and the ANE car bounced on the inside anti-cut, which sent him into the BVM car.

Personally, i dont see how that can be a penalty, but luckily i dont vote :tongue:

But i like this idea, points penalty is alot better then time!

 

[Xosé Estrada]

Atm thats my "biggest" concern, as hard racing needs to be allowed, The BVM vs ANE incident is pure racing incident, both could have helped so the incident never happend, and the ANE car bounced on the inside anti-cut, which sent him into the BVM car.

Personally, i dont see how that can be a penalty, but luckily i dont vote :tongue:

But i like this idea, points penalty is alot better then time!

That doesn't depend on rules.

Stewards are the TS of the teams and they have to investigate what is reported. If an incident is as clear as you think it is, it should be an easy "No penalty" vote, but again that's not up to rules, is up to what we consider racing incident or not, we don't investigate what it's not reported

 

[David Garcia]

... but luckily i dont vote :tongue:

Voting is mandatory (...the message is not for you but for te teams not votting).

Soon we will start applying penaltys to the teams not judging an incident. It is OUR main work here to keep the competition fair. You have to vote even when your team is part of the incident to judge guys.

If it is clearly a race incident, then vote NO PENALTY, as Xose stated before.

 

[Rickard Hellsten]

That doesn't depend on rules.

Stewards are the TS of the teams and they have to investigate what is reported. If an incident is as clear as you think it is, it should be an easy "No penalty" vote, but again that's not up to rules, is up to what we consider racing incident or not, we don't investigate what it's not reported

Well, tbh with u, im not a big fan of the voting system u use in STC :tongue:

Dont know how many of u that have raced in FSR.
But there they use a system that 1-2 ppl go through all the reports, they decide what penalty to give, the results are posted, then if the team / driver isnt happy with the penalty he / she got, they report it to "TOA", were it works like here, more ppl can vote, and the majority vote wins.

I see that as a much "safer" system, always the same ppl who go through the reports, so the penaltys will be as consistant as possible.

As the STC system works atm, u can get one penalty for once incident, and one for another.
In the end, both incident was exactly the same, just different corner, different drivers.

 

[Rickard Hellsten]

If it is clearly a race incident, then vote NO PENALTY, as Xose stated before.

But ppl dosnt vote "NO PENALTY", Simon voted +30 sec for BVM vs ANE, my opinion is that its a racing incident.

But as u can see already, we look different at things.

Im not here to change or start a discussion war, lol, im just giving my opinions on what i think / feel should be improved.

 

[David Garcia]

As the STC system works atm, u can get one penalty for once incident, and one for another.
In the end, both incident was exactly the same, just different corner, different drivers.

Can´t it happen at FSR aswell? Sorry Rickard but I don´t see why 2 persons opinion is more consistent than 12 votes...

We have been that lucky to don´t have to look to other leagues ever as the STC system have proved to work and be fair enough, as these are the teams deciding on what penalty the action deserve.

But ppl dosnt vote "NO PENALTY", Simon voted +30 sec for BVM vs ANE, my opinion is that its a racing incident.

But as u can see already, we look different at things.

Im not here to change or start a discussion war, lol, im just giving my opinions on what i think / feel should be improved.

Of course and we appreciate all what you bring and can be an improvement, but to me it looks like the WAR systme has proved to be quite fair. In your particular case, if Simon vote 30 secs and you think it was a No Penalty, you just should discuss it at your team forum before, and later come with an answer and a vote.

In our team case, TBR, Ivo have 100% free of choice on the poll as we really trust what he votes is right.