Debate: The Rights and Wrongs of the Verstappen Penalty

[Coffer]

I also regard Trulli was one hell of a driver, though not consistent enough or sometimes at the wrong place at the wrong time. I had hopes for Bottas as I really liked him at Williams but so far he’s a little bit disappointing. Would be good to see him challenge Hamilton as Rosberg did last year.

Trulli was a monstrous qualifier, but my point is that Alonso never should've lost to him, and unsurprisingly he didn't lose in 2003 when he was actually good.

As for Bottas, again, give it time. His first half is much more representative of his pace than his second half so far if Mercedes' history is anything to go by, and this year they couldn't just make both cars equal because of Vettel so they were in a much more precarious position than they were with the HAM-ROS lineup. I do wonder what Wehrlein could've done in that car though.

 

[Coffer]

The drivers wouldn't have been running wide at turn 19 in qualifying if it wasn't faster.

So many pointless words just to say something that was immediately disproved by Whiting this very weekend...

And don't even try to bring any form of British domestic racing into this. Everyone involved in them is so laughable that they're not even worth considering, and that includes the trashy regulations.

 

[Jimlaad43]

So many pointless words just to say something that was immediately disproved by Whiting this very weekend...

And don't even try to bring any form of British domestic racing into this. Everyone involved in them is so laughable that they're not even worth considering, and that includes the trashy regulations.

I love how wrong every statement in that reply is.

 

[BenCollins]

Put a few hay bales there for next year, young Verstappen wouldn't have finished the race at all.

 

[Coffer]

I love how wrong every statement in that reply is.

Goes to show how everything you think is right is so laughably wrong.

 

[Ghoults]

Cutting a corner to make a pass is different thing than to go little wide on corner exit. And going little wide on corner exit is also different than being pushed off the track. It is hard to take people seriously who can or do not want not see the difference of those three. Imagine is spa one car goes straight through eau rouge at the top and makes a pass. Is that a pass or is it just cutting the track? We are all sim racers. We should know it is blatant corner cut.

F1 racing rules are pretty much a joke because for some reason you can push people off the track while the brundles and laudas scream in joy how awesome the move was. Then when it is one of their own drivers is being pushed off the track they whinge and whine like the cash pile they are sitting on is catching fire. You can literally divebomb way too late into the corner and wreck the other car while still not being able to keep your car on track and receive no penalty:

But sometimes you can't. F1's problem has been stewards for at least 90 years. They should just use the gps to track the cars and computers to dish out penalties. Once you go over a limit you get automatic penalty. Unless you can prove there was a technical issue the penalty stands.

 

[Stig Bidstrup]

I'd really like to hear Kimi's opinion on that!
In smaller series they have to decide more "black and white".
Over the limits: penalty. Always and ever!

But in F1 with all the cameras, stewards and what not, they are able to gather all perspectives, discuss, go into the situation of both drivers.
I kind of liked what Niki Lauda said after the race.
He had two main points:
1. The result from that will be that we won't see such an overtake anymore. Which is a pity. Because even without going over the limits, he would've gone past!

2. He only went over the limits because Kimi closed a little bit and he just reacted to that. The rules are there to make it fair and also more safe. Max now has two possibilities for the next time: don't overtake which is hurting the sport or go for it without going over the inside and risk a crash next time.
I prefer the track cut over both!

As said, I think Mr. Lauda said something reasonable and I like to agree! For me it wasn't a cut to overtake. It was a cut to keep the overtake more safe and in F1, the stewards should be able to differentiate between that!

Little edit: that doesn't mean that the penalty was completely wrong. You can debate for both sides but I think at this moment, the sports rather needs some good action and not even more restrictions.
That's why I'd like to hear Kimi's opinion on it. Whether he thinks Max did good or if he thinks it was a real cut.

Mr Lauda talked like a racing driver , that have just gotten out of the car,
Of Course you cant have drivers cutting corners when they are fighting for a podium finish,
If the limit is not 4 wheels on the wrong side , where is the limit then ?? 3-4-5 meters more to the wrong side ?

 

[RasmusP]

Mr Lauda talked like a racing driver , that have just gotten out of the car,
Of Course you cant have drivers cutting corners when they are fighting for a podium finish,
If the limit is not 4 wheels on the wrong side , where is the limit then ?? 3-4-5 meters more to the wrong side ?

I get your point and I don't have a 100% opinion on this. I think you can decide both ways but then it needs to get more consistent.
It comes down to how much you include into the judgement.

I think the pass would've happened even without the cut. He already had the overlap and the inside for the long sweep. For me it looked like he only tried to avoid a crash (because he crashes a lot, usually ) so he steered a bit to the right. The problem I see here is that to have the left wheel on the inside edge of a kerb is not great so he got full over it.
So for me there are 3 possibilities which results from the penalty:
- exactly the same happens again + another penalty
- taking greater risks to stay on track but maybe crash
- don't go for it and it gets boring

For me it's coming down to whether you, as a steward, include the argument that the pass would've happened even without the cut or if you don't.
It's kind of the same story as "he did cut, but did it gain time?".

Would be way easier with some grass on the inside so Max's brain wouldn't have decided to avoid Kimi by going over there. He would've backed out of it or went for it.
But when you just "react" in the splitsecond of it, you can't blame the reflexes to take it a bit more safe than needed if there is the possibility.

Difficult thing this cut...
But the more I read here, the more I tend to agree with "penalty was correct, the license points weren't needed!"

 

[Terry Rock]

Just a funny thought!...."Can you imagine if this entire race had to adhere to the rules as they're imposed in Assetto Corsa?"
The overtake was exciting but after looking at the replay footage... the right decision.
I do like Max.
That 'baby-faced assassin' is fearless.

 

[Enzo Fazzi]

Penalty is fair, inconsistency isn't and it's a bit bad for the sport. How often do we see last lap overtakes for the podium?

 

[Stig Bidstrup]

You cant let drivers gain a PODIUM finish by making a cut , deliberate or not, doesn't matter..

 

[IMrIMike]

I still don´t get the argument that is the apparent inconsitency of the stewarts. I see where you wanna go with, but noone has exceeded the track to such an extent like Max did for a podium position. Off tracks have been handled quite easily by them and trust me, they´ve seen all of them. Point is that Max gained his position by cutting the whole corner. Also, if it wasn´t for the yellow sausage curbs on the apex of T1 and T11 in COTA, you could cut the whole hairpin to overtake like Max did. Is that being considered as an awesome overtake as well then?

 

[Cote Dazur]

Penalty was deserved, case closed!

 

[gamer19]

You guys seems to forget that Brasil (and not only Brasil!) race last year. You may like him or not (hell, we can even form a club here, I may be a president, or something else where's money involved) but saying that he's got no talent... only makes you look bad in the eyes of those who understand racing. So don't.

I've said no, not because of the 5 second penalty which was fair enough, but for the penalty points they put on Max's license...

Did they really give him penalty points ? Didn't hear anything about it, that WOULD be a shame, not 5 seconds penalty as his father has Tweeted...

I'd really like to hear Kimi's opinion on that!...

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/raikkonen-had-no-idea-why-verstappen-was-penalised-969289/
There you are. Knock your self out.

 

[Tr3voRR]

Is this a ****ing joke ? Is there really are reason to debate this ? The guy over took with four wheels outside, text book give back position or penalty. END OF STORY ! and idiots like Mark Webber saying 'this was a fair play move by Verstappen"... wow... just wow... You want a real debate ? how about all the penalties Max never got for moving more than once while defending positions ? This guy escaped so many penalties it's not even funny....!

 

[PaceBR]

For me, it's really-really simple.

It's all about gaining advantage over somebody.
And that's why Max Verstappen got caught.
He had a clear advantage over Kimi by moving outside the track.

As for qualify session, they were all leaving the track trying to low their laptimes.
Nobody had an advantage because they were on equal conditions. Pretty simple.

Personally, i am no fan of these huge outside-track areas. I'd like to see more limited (grass) as Spa, Monza, Hungary, Suzuka... as I feel the race becomes more raw-ish. lol

Penalty was spot-on.

And, also, a great race overall.

 

[IMrIMike]

how about all the penalties Max never got for moving more than once while defending positions ? This guy escaped so many penalties it's not even funny....!

Thank you! Spa and Hungary ´16 comes to my mind there.

 

[gecco]

The 5s penalty was correct, imho!

Cars were exceeding track boundaries all weekend long, that is true, but in this case, Max choose to blatantly cut the inside of the track, during an overtake, that gave him 3rd place.
Quite a difference between running wide on exit (as we've seen many times) or cutting a corner in an effort to overtake someone, specially, if it was as clear a cut as in this case.
If there had been a substantial curb and grass behind it, like it was in the old days, he would not been able to make that move, so much's for sure as well.

 

[gamer19]

Yeah, right.... let's go back in time. This is Back to the F1 future: Creation.
Guys... it's almost like we have dude commited a murder and someone jump in courtroom and yell "Yo, what's with all those unpaid parking tickets he's got !?!". Just plain silly.

 

[PaceBR]

The 5s penalty was correct, imho!

Cars were exceeding track boundaries all weekend long, that is true, but in this case, Max choose to blatantly cut the inside of the track, during an overtake, that gave him 3rd place.
Quite a difference between running wide on exit (as we've seen many times) or cutting a corner in an effort to overtake someone, specially, if it was as clear a cut as in this case.
If there had been a substantial curb and grass behind it, like it was in the old days, he would not been able to make that move, so much's for sure as well.

Exactly. It's only a matter of gaining an advantage over another.

I was shocked to hear Lauda's opinion... he is talking way too much lately imo...