Cutting rules at Monza too strict? The end of the discussion is near.

Bram

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Whaha, while we are complaining about the cutting rules at Monza being too strict compared to what we were used to in RACE - The WTCC Game i must admit that i prefer the stricter one for sure now. Let's close the discussion.

Just found this "hotlap" for the Xbox RACE Pro on youtube and that looks awefully like how we drove the RACE 06 track, yikes i dont want to go back to that anymore. Better too strict then too loose imho. I am cured of the complaining after this seeing this lap:

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Os2INeH4Ge8[/ame]

Also notice how bad the gears are used in this movie, while the Alfa has so much potential driving a hotlap on Monza:) My respect to the top RACE 07 drivers that nail a 1:57 with RACE 07 cutting rules grew today. Weldone!
 
@Dietmar, the last Parabolica curve is a 3rd gear corner. The fact he takes this one (and others) in fourth gear means imo that his gears are not properly setup for perfect acceleration. He reaches the rev limiter before the entry of Lesmo 2 :D

It's true but with the cutting he is doing, the gears are well setup.
If you see through chicane1 and 2 he is 2nd and 3rd gear, because he is cutting massively both inside curbs.
 
I always expetected people like this to play RACE Pro. Don't release sims on the Xbox! There isn't even proper wheel support for it (G25 etc.)

The cutting in that was... Atrocious. I bet he's well chuffed with himself. Love to see him even try in RACE 07 Monza XD
 
I always expetected people like this to play RACE Pro. Don't release sims on the Xbox! There isn't even proper wheel support for it (G25 etc.)

The cutting in that was... Atrocious. I bet he's well chuffed with himself. Love to see him even try in RACE 07 Monza XD

I fail to see what this has to do with Xbox, its more the lack of the rules within the game then the drivers to be honest.
If your statement was true then we wont have the cutting problem? I only have to see our ridiculous cutting race at Curitiba last saturday to concluse thats not true.
In every game and every platform there will be people looking for the boundaries of the game and people that just stick to normal driving like a gentleman :)
 
I fail to see what this has to do with Xbox, its more the lack of the rules within the game then the drivers to be honest.
I didn't mean anything personal against the players, but most console players wouldn't be bothered to obey the rules word for word. Also, sacrafices have to be made to suit the controller. Simbin probably had a choice, and chose this. I would imagine RACE Pro is a sort of starting point for sim racing and they want it to be fun too. With the Xbox, if it's fun, it sells. Money for them, a win-win situation.

Either way, the rules have just been flushed down the toilet, excuses or not :p
 
  • leahcim

but most console players wouldn't be bothered to obey the rules word for word.

There's been similar cutting in every time trial I've downloaded so far in race 07 - and these folk had to choose to upload their lap.

What you get on the 360 is pretty much the time the guy gets, glitched, cut or not. If they cut accidentally and it is faster they can't do anything about it...and this guy chose to record and show this lap, highlighting the problem. The game didn't.

Simbin should have polished the game before release.

You can't have gentlemanly agreements or unwritten rules that aren't enforced by the game where leaderboards are concerned. Especially if the lap times are posted to said boards automatically by the game.

By contrast, PC users given a choice whether to upload a time where they completely leave the track on, e.g Brands Hatch or Curitiba appear to have no problem uploading it - go and see.

Simple maxim, if there is a rule for something, it's because you needed one :)

Also, sacrafices have to be made to suit the controller

To which God? It won't make any difference, the controller has analogue controls. If anything, if there is any difference, it'll probably be quicker.
 
Cars are that bit more tricky to control with the sticks, I find.

It could be just a process for Simbin, slowly introducing rules, and seeing how the community react. The way I see it, this is Simbins first game using the Lizard engine, so perhaps they're taking a different approach. Things like this are expected from any new game, before it's patched.
 
... It won't make any difference, the controller has analogue controls. If anything, if there is any difference, it'll probably be quicker.

The impute can be faster, but it’s all about precision (G25 for instances)... but I do admit that all simbin games try to balance controllers.

So someone simracing with a flight yoke or gamepad can still be the quickest around for a few laps. But after 1h or 2h of race, his/her wrist will be in pain, but again I admit, how many (%) console gamers "simulate" a race? So far as I know, not that many...


Regarding the rules

The simracing rules are the club rules where the race is taking part, RD rules for instances are very near to RL rules. If you are racing vs. the AI or in a non administered public server, then yes, the rules are your rules (roofed by simbin rules).

Sometimes the in-game rules (simbin cutting rules) collide with club (RD) rules; one good example is Monza and a better one Imola where the in game rules are harsher then club (RD) rules (and RL rules).
Here there isn't much that can be done, for instances, if one gets a bump from behind in the first corner at Monza and gets an automatic stop & go, there is little RD can do...

The contrary is also possible, there are many MODed racetracks where the in-game cutting rules are very soft compared with RD rules. Here the race organizers have to limit the boundaries in the forum/chat before race.
If there is some shady part regarding cutting rules on a specific racetrack, I for myself always ask about it, the Nordschleife comes to mind...
I've done very good on-line endurance races there; in some cutting in Forst was allowed, in others it wasn't and it wasn't because of this the race was less or more fun, just set/know and go by the “house” rules...


The truce is, when the in-game rules are softer then the club rules (house rules), there is something we can do about it, when it is the contrary (Monza, Imola), there is lots of complaining because there isn’t much that can be done from the club rules side.


Regarding being "fast" and cutting at same time... it is irrelevant, no one won any race by being the fastest in a time-attack arcade style event. Setups that do marvelous things in an arcade event do a big 0 of any good after 15 mins of simulated race at 30° air temperature…

In time-attack/arcade mode there is no fuel consumption, no fuel weight (0L), tires don't degrade, there is more tarmac grip and perhaps most importantly, if you cut and the “system” doesn't "notice" the time sticks (Curitiba, Monza, Imola just to name a few). This kind of arcade events aren't bad or good, they are events that are oriented to a different (usually younger) target audience and aren’t meant to take many conclusions out of them...
(ok, we now know he/she doesn’t pay in any way for that gearbox/engine, but I guess we already knew that:wink2:)
 
  • Kyle Evers

Well I like the 2008 F1 rules for cutting the curbs - you can cut the curbs, but if you pass someone, you must let them by.
 
What I don't like about Monza, that if you brake too late and decide to take the escape way at turn 1, not sliding through the chicane and people there, even if you go very slowly, you get a black flag. Also if you slide through a corner I don't think you should get a penalty as you don't win anything there, but that's one thing you need to sacrifice I think if you work with AI..
But I think those rules are right anyways, at least these tracks catch those people who go too far for a win..
 
  • leahcim

Cars are that bit more tricky to control with the sticks, I find.

It's anecdotal though.

It's evident most use a wheel and thus use the wheel for hours and hours, if not days / weeks and months of practise. Some of us have used a wheel for decades before ever playing a sim.

If they contrast that experience with either never having used a controller, and simply waving their hands in the air giving reasons why the wheel is better, or they've used a controller for a few laps, then it's fairly obvious which they will find easier.

But, it wasn't a question about which was easier anyway. If I said "The F 3000 is a lot faster than the mini" would you reply "But I find the F 3000 is more tricky to control than the mini"?

Then there's the feedback. If you use that, you're going to find it missing when you use a controller. But you generally don't miss what you've never had.

But really it's just a silly snobbery. There are millions of console owners, ergo just about any stereotype you make up is going to be wrong.

It could be just a process for Simbin, slowly introducing rules, and seeing how the community react. The way I see it, this is Simbins first game using the Lizard engine, so perhaps they're taking a different approach. Things like this are expected from any new game, before it's patched.

Unlikely. As I understand it, MS only allow a certain max patch size to a game, in total (i.e if they patch 4 times, it all has to fit) It's relatively small, like 4mb of patches or something.

Plus of course, what we have to remember is (and when atari were questioned about sales and someone said "on xbox live there are x race pro users" atari replied that lots of console users don't connect to xbox live. It was a miserable attempt to try and make the sales look like they could be better, but it was ironic in its contempt for customers. Because the same person has basically decided like you, that a broken game is fine because you can patch it.

You even seem to think that it's a design feature :)

I can't think of anything worse than owning race pro if you don't, because the product is essentially broken in myriad ways if you can't patch it that make track cutting the least of your worries. But that's getting off the topic a bit.
 
The one that annoys me is Pau

I am sure it has changed because in the chicane at the top of the hill where the crane is you used to be able to cut quite a lot there

Now it seems very harsh, you really find it hard to understand where you are cutting!!

The worst one though is Imola, the first chicane, and the Acque Minerale section, !! How can going that wide mean a penalty!!
 
What I don't like about Monza, that if you brake too late and decide to take the escape way at turn 1, not sliding through the chicane and people there, even if you go very slowly, you get a black flag. Also if you slide through a corner I don't think you should get a penalty as you don't win anything there, but that's one thing you need to sacrifice I think if you work with AI..
But I think those rules are right anyways, at least these tracks catch those people who go too far for a win..

That's a gripe I hear very often and it's just that the rule can't differentiate between different situations. It's the same with blue flags and trying to unlap yourself. We choose to run black flags only and put up with the odd erroneous cut-track warning.
 
  • jmabarone

Monza annoys me because I drive sometimes through Ascari with the right side tires barely knicking the edge of the line (tires mostly on track), and I get a penalty. What's worse is that I would be doing a race there, with a nice 2 second lead, and I get punted by the guy in 2nd to where I cut the track (incidentally), and I get a stop-and-go...what is that crap!
 
That's a gripe I hear very often and it's just that the rule can't differentiate between different situations. It's the same with blue flags and trying to unlap yourself. We choose to run black flags only and put up with the odd erroneous cut-track warning.

in evo you avoid the penalty if you come to a complete stop and traverse the boards properly. use another car nearby to judge if you gained time or not.
 

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