Can sim racers advance into real world motor racing?

[Frederic Schornstein]

Karts are awful for teaching you how to drive road cars fast. There's no suspension, no momentum, no understeer, no front brake, no acceleration, etc.
I think they're only good for preparing kids and teenagers, for driving low powered single seater racing cars later.

That was not my point. It was more about lines and accepting risk etc. But in low powered karts momentum and understeer are very much present, so you should check your facts on that one

 

[Msportdan]

I did a FR2.0 track day on Friday, and because my sim and race game experience over the years, It helped with understanding car/race dynamics.. it all felt similar but with a lot more real life added in.

It was one of the best experiences of my life. My first thoughts

- hey its tight in here my ankles are touching each other.
- wow where the brake, the pedals are almost on top of each other
- the gearstick is pushed against my thigh and its a hard pull to engage
- the acceleration!! Pushed back into the seat feel but belts ai tight u don't move much.
- bloody hell the grip!!! I mean wow
- steerings heavy at slow speeds and lightens up faster you go. Suppose momentum of the tyres going forward makes Turning easier.
- confidence with the car I had was amazing I just could feel every feeling thru my bum and the wheel.
- the feeling thru the wheel is like a heavily dampered feel. Not as notchy as rf2
- out braked myself and went off all the stones stuck to the wheels and as I got off again the stones were hitting my visor. Don't get that in a game.
- the energy and fitness you need I did 20 laps and I struggles to get out of car at the end I was knackered
- the braking it stops In instant!
- I locked up the inside left front going into a slow left corner. Didn't flatspot easily. Very skittish under braking.

 

[Azfalt Raser]

Those guys clearely are the exception. They were driving a super Nissan and they
do have lots of raw talent. Sim racing follows the basic principles of actual racing, but
they are nothing alike. As noted above, real-life racing is much much harder, that is
why so a few people do it. It's not just a matter of physique and reflexes, it also has to
do wtih talent and preception, something not vital when playing a mere videogame.
Ofcourse, racing is still a sport not easily accessible, at least not at its top tiers,
thus many talented people do not have the chance to race, let alone drive at the top level.

The REAL REASON more people don't go racing in real life is because of the cost. PERIOD! End of story - even at the lowest levels.

You can learn to drive a car fast. It takes seat time.

let's find out?

http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/a8785/american-endurance-racing-is-the-next-cheap-frontier/

http://www.caranddriver.com/feature...ng-lemons-racer-feature-priceless-tips-page-2

8 sim racers, sharing expenses, racing 24 hours. Sounds like stuff of legend sure to be spread across the net.

 

[Gav Elias]

All you need to see....

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jann_Mardenborough

 

[Brendan Little]

Mine felt real on Saturday, ran wide then missed a braking point at Bedford. Was soo much like me in AC GT3 only apart from I didnt end in the gravel....

 

[Azfalt Raser]

Mine felt real on Saturday, ran wide then missed a braking point at Bedford. Was soo much like me in AC GT3 only apart from I didnt end in the gravel....
QUOTE]

Wow! so many cut track penalties

 

[Brendan Little]

lol, The first one is because someone had hit the cone so I ran wide instead of going for the inside, and the Chicane the cone is placed right on the green part so it would be rude not to take a massive chunk of kerb!

 

[Azfalt Raser]

- bloody hell the grip!!! I mean wow
- steerings heavy at slow speeds and lightens up faster you go. Suppose momentum of the tyres going forward makes Turning easier.
- confidence with the car I had was amazing I just could feel every feeling thru my bum and the wheel.
- the feeling thru the wheel is like a heavily dampered feel. Not as notchy as rf2
- the braking it stops In instant!

Does "handles like it's on rails" come to mind?

I realize you were in an open wheel car, but....
re: Grip.
Only confirms what I have felt in real cars vs sim cars. real cars with slicks have more grip than the sims portray. The level of grip that the R3E 2014 DTM cars or some of the prototype cars in R3E is probably more representative of what the grip level is like in most of the in-game cars.

re:confidence with car
In the past, I tested afew laps, with the standard width competition tire (for my class). Then followed that up with a slightly wider (optional) tire width. The difference was night and day. with the slightly narrower tire, the car wanted to wallow (wag it's rear end) when making quick transitions on track and push the front end severley. Basically the car felt almost out of control. Turn - delay - slide - correct - delay - slide - wiggle - gas.
With the wider tire, the car felt firmly planted, had more grip, handled way better, and was way more confidence inspiring. And the laptimes reflected that.

In many of the sim cars (not all), I get the exact same feeling (the wallowing). It's not confidence inspiring and difficult for precise steering inputs when youre trying to keep the car from "floating" all over the place. For the people who complain about "too much grip" they really need to get in a real car.

The rFactor Corvette.
I could drive down the straight at Silverstone and steer back and forth as if to warm my tires and the rear end is sliding back and forth at the limit of adhesion or as if it were on a wet track. When in fact, even a stock Corvette has much more grip. It is the application of power that causes the rears to break traction. You can feel that when driving a real corvette, you can see that in races with corvettes.

re: Steering.
You make me want to try the "speed sensitive steering" settings in R3E.

re: feel through the wheel (for open wheel cars, since I've never driven one).
Could you expand on that?
Can you replicate that feeling with your sim wheel?
Is it more a feeling that the grip of the tires is being transmitted through the suspension and slowing your steering input, thereby requiring more effort? both turning and centering?

 

[Brendan Little]

One thing I note on my track car on slicks and the AC cars on slick is the lack of bouncing in the corners. Probably not the best word to describe it but on my track car when you go on long fast left and right turns an are on the limit, before you lose grip and slide your can feel the car bouncing on the tyres. Its not an aggressive bounce but a low sensitive feel you get that lets you know what's going on. On AC you get grip then no grip and I agree with the level of grip slicks give in sims is not close enough to what you get in real life. My car is set up by a professional Tarmac Rally team that raced E36 before moving to 1 series so they know their stuff so I know its solid.

Again it comes back to the feel of real life that they cant quite get right due to software and hardware more then the engineers wanting to get it right. If it wasn't for the 'crashing doesn't hurt' on sim racing I honestly think I would be faster in real life then on a sim in the same car and same track just because the amount of feel and input you get from the car over a sim.

 

[Msportdan]

Couldn't agree more Brendan. Especially the bouncing feel you get, I think rf2 and GSc slightly gets this sensation, but not entirely sure it by design or accident. I think given more track time, anyone with any part of driving skill and racecraft can be quick in these things.

@Azfalt Raser
thanks for the post mate, glad you took interest

yes the "handle on rails" thing, Was my first thought along with s*it this is bloody fast. Its not unlike the feel you get from karts. apart from everything coming at you a lot quicker.

I did actually pay for an onboard but they screwed it up and gave me some slow old guys footage. Wont lie pretty fuming about that lol But my brother got some awesome photos from my 20 lap experience!

To be fair I would say about 75% of the feel from the car is not through your hands. Your so low to the ground, its amazing how much your bum and back and legs, pick up whats happening with the car. Theres no power steering, so if you've driven a car with none, its very similar, apart from your going a lot faster and the downforce is pushing you into the track. I mean that's where the confidence must come from, the grip is phenomenal!!! For me the self centring effect in Rre is way off, its just not natural to what ive experienced. Another thing, braking, its not that easy to lock up a wheel. I did once as my photo showed. Because the pedal had no servos the travel is very firm, this gives a really good feeling of where the brakes are starting to lock. Also not to mention my cars was fairly warmed up with hours of running before my go. The temps I was told were pretty optimal. I know I wasn't at the limit of the car, and no where near a pros limit, but its still gave me a great insight of real life behind a wheel of one of these things.

..and no you can never replicate the feeling of these cars with just a wheel. Maybe some high end simulator that sends sensations and feedback throught all your body. The main thing I think that ffb through a plastic wheel needs to at least (imo) get right, is the weight. Some sims just don't have this correct its all too loose until you get faster. In my experience, its the other way around, heavier at slow speeds and lighter faster you go.

.....and it was always on my to do before I die list, and I have and it was f-ing awesome!!!

 

[Azfalt Raser]

One thing I note on my track car on slicks and the AC cars on slick is the lack of bouncing in the corners. Probably not the best word to describe it but on my track car when you go on long fast left and right turns an are on the limit, before you lose grip and slide your can feel the car bouncing on the tyres. Its not an aggressive bounce but a low sensitive feel you get that lets you know what's going on. On AC you get grip then no grip and I agree with the level of grip slicks give in sims is not close enough to what you get in real life. My car is set up by a professional Tarmac Rally team that raced E36 before moving to 1 series so they know their stuff so I know its solid.

Again it comes back to the feel of real life that they cant quite get right due to software and hardware more then the engineers wanting to get it right. If it wasn't for the 'crashing doesn't hurt' on sim racing I honestly think I would be faster in real life then on a sim in the same car and same track just because the amount of feel and input you get from the car over a sim.

I agree! A dev that gets the perfect feeling ffb will become rich beyond belief. They will corner the market in sims - and they spend thousands of hours trying.

That's why I like R3E so much. It's not perfect, but depending on the car, under braking, I do get that wheel hop (or suspension oscillation) in the corners and the audio telling me the tire is breaking loose (skipping) or at the limit of adhesion. All the other sims, you hear a sliding sound (or poor scrubbing facsimile). Obviously that doesnt happen all the time. Just depends on the bumps, the track surface, level of grip......

One area of improvement would be for the sim devs to determine the proper wheel settings to make the ffb feel as heavy as possible or as close as possible to the real car. Race cars have heavy steering for the most part. Set that as the default steering setting. Then the player can lighten the steering from there, if they want. Even in a car with power steering, I noticed increase in steering effort with wider slicks.

@Msportdan Thanks for relaying your experience. it gives some insight to those who haven't had the opportunity to drive an open wheel car.

No power steering - been there. And you're right. I don't know what I was thinking. Amazing how much you forget as you get old.

 

[Azfalt Raser]

All you need to see....

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jann_Mardenborough

Amazing!!!

*** EDIT****
*** sorry. I don't know how to just post the link and not the video ***

 

[Ho3n3r]

Stoffel Vandoorne is a clear example that it can happen and that you can be fast.

However, it is no guarantee for anyone.

 

[Msportdan]

and GT is considered simcade no? Well didn't do that kid any harm.. He didn't use RF2 and look at him now wow.. im well jealous.. good luck to him!

 

[Azfalt Raser]

and GT is considered simcade no? Well didn't do that kid any harm.. He didn't use RF2 and look at him now wow.. im well jealous.. good luck to him!

And they are using Logitech DFGT's for that academy!
Billions of dollars in car manufacturing, racing, and racing equipment........ DFGT's?
Suddenly - I'm pretty happy with my DFGT.