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Buttkicker advice

Discussion in 'Sim Racing Hardware' started by signman, Jun 5, 2017.

  1. signman

    signman
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    Have a LFE fullsize waiting to bolt under my Tillet B4 seat.

    Would additional Advancer or mini LFE be best choice ?
    My rig is pretty hefty4 5-90 ally Profile.

    I was thinking Inuke DSP3000 for the big LFE or would it require the 6000DSP ?

    Tried to contact Mr Latte but no joy.

    Appreciate any advice

    Paul
     
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  2. asteroulis

    asteroulis

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    3000 should be more than enough. Where do you plab to place additional units? What mode? Simvibe or just audio?
     
  3. signman

    signman
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    I'm using Rift .

    Honestly looking fro advice..I don't know anything about just simvibe or audio.
    Not driving Rally so not sure I need huge thumps.

    i picked up the full size LFE because it was cheap.
    Not sure if I'm best fitting it under my seat and driving it with a 300DSP.

    Then an Advance under my HE Ultimate's plus x4 mini LFE each corner. ?

    Or.. Big LFE under seat and x4 Advance.
    couple uner pedal's and other two each side on the seat bracket's.

    I'm proper rabbit in headlight's !!
     
  4. asteroulis

    asteroulis

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    Ok,you'd better do a good amount of reading Mr. Latte 's work first. Lots of useful information that will give you first idea. Big LFE is a great unit. Bigger units usually have better response across frequencies. You won't ever drive them full power that's for sure. It has been proven by many that placemeny and isolation is the key to a successful tactile setup. Good enough results can be achieved with even the cheapest tactile units if placed at the right places with proper isolation and at best frequencies per unit, so that energy is focused where its needed. So, reading first will really clear lot of things for you!
     
  5. signman

    signman
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    Well my rig is on concrete floor.

    I was set on x4 Advance but told can be like try to knock gently with a big hammer ..makes sense.
    I want subtle too..road texture etc.

    I've read a ton of Mr. Latte post's..still don't know what is best.
    He is very quiet at the mo..have PM'd him.

    Thank you
     
  6. asteroulis

    asteroulis

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    First of all you have to isolate your rig from the floor.Isolators, mats, depending on your rig. Then you should isolate the areas where you want to place transducers from the rest of the rig. 4x Advance is a really good setup. Could be overkill as well. Then it's about testing once you install.

    You really did lousy reading though. You cannot be asking about simvibe vs audio tactile. It's basics. Read. Google. Then start contacting in person Mr. Latte. He is helping voluntarily people, but please ask him more complicated stuff. It's quite tiring to answer the same basics to many people. And really, everything that you asked are in his threads.

    Also, do a start with installing the LFE and get it working with simvibe. You will understand many things that are now a chaos in your mind because lots of info is overwhelming. Then you will start having specific questions and a clear understanding of the answers.
     
  7. signman

    signman
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    Sure I know the difference between them ?

    I was wondering if audio was worth bothering with too.
    All I'm concerned with at the moment is 'vibe's
     
  8. asteroulis

    asteroulis

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    At the moment you have audio and a shaker. Try it.
     
  9. signman

    signman
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    I don't have any amp's yet.
     
  10. asteroulis

    asteroulis

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    Just saw your rig. Amazing. Will need some changes for isolating specific areas so I'd suggest you lift it from the floor and put antivibration matt underneat or something for start.
    To use audio tactile you need to have your audio split and put a low pass filter. Easiest and cheapest way with a pc is by using a program like Voicemeeter Banana which is donateware, and very easy to use. If you have a surround sound system you are using with LFE output just get a splitter and double your woofers output to get signal to the amp of the BK. In any case you should get ordering your amp :)
     
  11. signman

    signman
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    Just going with vibe's.
    I have some adjustable feet for my rig..not fitted yet.

    I've raced car's including Ralt F3 some year's ago.

    My kid's growing up I needed speed again in my life ;-)

    Not being able to afford to race I thought I'd give karting another go last year.

    Bought shifter kart.
    Great fun but loads of hassle getting to the track and my old body hurt's like f''k these day's.

    Bad joint's.. even the Bodnar wound up I know I've been driving.
    But what awesome fun it is ..never thought driving in the sim especially with VR would be so good.

    I hooked .. lol

    Thanks for help fella's
     
  12. Mr Latte

    Mr Latte
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    Just showing that "we have made contact" as didn't want people to think I had purposely ignored you, even though I had taken a bit of a break away from the forums.

    Very interested to see progress and your own views/findings as you enter into this as a new experience. Your own story might make a refreshing build thread if you decide you want to share it like a blog.

    From what we have discussed and your willingness to do tests/experiment with the build/installation. With the level of hardware your for using, this could be a very impressive tactile implementation, setting a high benchmark for whats possible in this area of immersion.
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2017
  13. Mr Latte

    Mr Latte
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    A few things for later that may help get you started regards Simvibe if searching as a newcomer.
    You may be unlikely to find any in-depth comparisons for the effects or much information covering how they individually will compare to others. For example "Road Bumps" to "Suspension Bumps" or how "Textures" may differ from "Tone Based effects".


    Lack Of Official Guides For Effects & Controls!

    Sometimes, it may be hard to really grasp/determine "just by feel" how some effects may actually differ in their general operation.

    Also when changing different cars yet using the same "effects profile" this has an impact too. Last but not least, for engines how Simvibe alters the effects output between a V4 -V12 based engine for the vibration/harmonics mode. You then have the issue of various controls with no proper instruction in laymans terms what they actually do or are for.

    The software requires a LOT of trial and error as to what may feel good for users.


    Drat, Drat, Drat & Double Drat!

    My own journey...

    [​IMG]

    These are examples of things beyond the norm and not part of Simvibe. Things that I personally took upon myself to learn. I did come to better understand what can't just be understood by feel alone. I wanted to have visual representation of the effects being output, to enable detailed monitoring of them. Achieving monitoring that can be used in real-time to compare any or all 8 channels or a combination of effects at one time.

    [​IMG]

    In some cases it may be to just compare 2 effects 1-1. Or to monitor before and after results with using the Simvibe "Tuning Wizard". The visual tools being used can be on a secondary monitor or overlaid on the game video or recorded/captured and studied in more detail later if desired. Such for me did become geeky interesting as a tactile hobbyist but man it is rather time-consuming, frustrating and repetitive. To date, I have had over 900 hours testing within Assetto Corsa to continue to learn.

    [​IMG]
    Mr Latte you tactile fiend!!!

    Learning this in itself had hurdles to overcome, it's not something I recommend to others neither.
    As discovering and using suitable tools for doing this, to use specific professional audio plugins on a DAW connected to multi-channel audio interface. It was all new to me, it took time and quite a bit of money to do. The gamble was that if possible, then the benefit would be in having more understanding to help in creating improved profiles. How to help learn best apply specific frequencies or ways to utilise EM or CM channels by more understanding of what the effect may represent and how it was operating. By no means am I an expert or audio professional, nor always correct on such matters, heck still plenty to do and learn but I will share some things to help others.

    * No attempt is made to try and view, hack or crack code as really all that is being done here is monitoring audio output from a soundcard via common software used by audio enthusiasts, bands for multiple instruments , in home or professional studios.


    Okay so with my own crazy exploration out of the way lets look at Simvibe.

    Many of us including myself early on, originally considered how/what way the operation of effects were based. Taking into account the individual effects role and elements like kerbs, dips, bumps as objects and them having possible values to determine their strength? It was later that we learned, really this was not the case and the "physics data" also used for (motion cockpits) for the XYZ axis was the source used in conjunction with the users selected effects and then the users settings for these that determine the overall output.

    Scour the internet and you will find old information, assumptions and considerations or discussions on some elements that may not be accurate, including past ones by myself.



    SIMVIBE

    So here are parts of my own unofficial findings, take them for what they are.

    TYPES OF EFFECTS

    Motion Based
    • Impacts
    • Road Bumps
    • Road Texture
    • Vertical Surges
    • Vertical Texture
    • Suspension Bumps (stereo)
    • Suspension Texture (stereo)
    • Suspension Bump Surges (stereo)

    Engine Based

    • Engine Vibration
    • Engine RPM Quad Stream
    • Engine Vibration With Harmonics & Load

    Other

    • Speed Based White Noise / Wind
    • Estimated Wheel Lock Up
    • Gear Change
    • Missed Gear* (i-racing)
    • Custom Effect Game
    • Audio (Line Input)

    EFFECTS ACTIVITY CHART
    [​IMG]
    Here we see the different axis being in operation and NOT specific effects related to individual surface types or only roles for them.

    * Some effects may show excessive or slight operation with specific settings with high/low values.
    Note: Nov 2016 Chart (some newer effects not Included)


    ENGINE EFFECTS CHART

    [​IMG]
    Note: Nov 2016 Chart - I have confirmed that unfortunately, FILTERS for advanced controls are not available on the "RPM Quad Stream" engine feature. These are needed to enable specific controls for unique activity in "standard engine layers". SimXperience now discourages using multiple "standard engine layers" as many people used to do but without this feature in the "RPM Quad Stream" then users do not have the same level of control.

    This can be seen in the last video from Darin Ganji.




    CHASSIS EFFECTS CHART

    [​IMG]
    Note: Nov 2016 Chart: UNFINISHED!!!!
    Mono effects can be used on Chassis Mode and delivered over all units installed.
    These cannot, however, be sent to just FRONT or REAR channels of Chassis Mode
    ENGINE effect CAN be sent to FRONT only or REAR only or ALL 4 units.



    TONE BASED EFFECTS
    These are effects that enable user defined frequencies (Hz) as values for (Big Bump Tone) and (Small Bump Tone). Example: Big 40Hz & Small 70Hz. Notice how the "Big Tones" should use lower frequencies not higher frequency values. Having a good understanding of what the tactile being used can adequately generate and use most effectively is important also. This can be done by doing frequency sweep tests on the tactile units and trials with low-high frequencies.
    More on this later...

    • Sensitivity % (Overall Activity)
    • Big & Small Bump Tone Values (Centre Frequency Points)
    • Dynamic Tone Sensitivity (Highlight Centre Freq Filtering)*
    • Max Volume (dB)
    • Data Smoothing
    • Additional Filters
    • Additional Modifiers

    Example of personal study:
    "Dynamic Tone Sensitivity" one setting often confusing users as to what it actually does.
    This appears to determine how narrow/wide coverage of the surrounding frequencies are altered for the effects tone values given. By increasing the width of the frequency bandwidth, often referred to as the "Q" . It appears to boost either the Big/Sml tone values used for the effects creation. This can be applied so that the effect will use more the BIG tone value and its surrounding frequencies . Or by using more the SML tone value, this and its surrounding frequencies instead.


    TEXTURE EFFECTS
    • Sensitivity %
    • Max Volume
    • Signal Conditioning
    Texture effects do not allow the user to set tones values for their operation. In general, they offer less user control or adaptability to have them operating how you may want them to. This includes not having "additional filter" adjustment.

    They can however, use a MUCH wider range of frequencies and their harmonics from as low as 5Hz to beyond the range most tactile units are cable of producing tactile vibrations.


    [​IMG]


    iNUKE DSP SERIES AMPLIFIERS / ADDITIONAL HARDWARE BENEFITS?
    As you have purchased the iNuke DSP 3000 model amplifiers.

    Advantages with the DSP models are to be able to better control the output from Simvibe to a single frequency level. This is not possible in the software alone.

    Options include ability to BOOST the desirable frequencies but CUT any undesirable frequencies. This can be applied regards the users own tactile hardware operation and performance limitations, how different frequencies may be affected by the materials in your rig, for personal preference or desired mood. The common (Piston Pang) or (Overheating) issues with some Buttkickers are another factor that can be reduced or eliminated using these amps.

    • Digital Wattage Limiter
    • Crossover Control
    • Gain Control
    • Parametric Equalisation (PEQ)
    • Dynamic Equalisation (DEQ)
    • Load & Save Profiles
    Such may at this stage appear complicated or overwhelming but in reality, it is rather easy to grasp with some time in self-testing and quite simply mucking about. I have given people 1hr private tutorials on how to understand, use and apply some of these amps features.

    Audio Tactile Vs Simvibe Vs Sim-Shaker
    In all honesty, these all have their own Pros/Cons they can be covered in time if desired and during your tests. Some people will say you don't need audio if you have Simvibe. Yet they may not tell you what you can gain from it that Simvibe just does not do and one of the drawbacks with Simvibe's engines or surfaces in sims that have no "physics data". Yes Simvibe does do MANY things better too and Sim-Shaker can produce different but rather good tactile effects more akin to the GS4 motion seat.

    It's also possible to incorporate in different ways each. Have them operate combined together or on their own.

    Hope this is useful to you or others.


    REALLY do look forward to seeing what you are for doing but in honest kinda hoping you will consider using this thread to generate some interest and likely help others. Sharing your own progress and blog your own thoughts, experiences, and opinions throughout, building, testing and eventual completion.

    It could be really fun to do, share and participate with others.
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2017
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  14. signman

    signman
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    Well I've made a start..told the wife it's our new Xmas tree ;-)

    [​IMG]
     
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  15. Mr Latte

    Mr Latte
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    Yep, looks good should get your bells ringing.
     
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  16. HoiHman

    HoiHman

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    That should shake things up :thumbsup:
     
  17. Mr Latte

    Mr Latte
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    Look forward to helping you with the installation and tuning.

    Recent tests with @DesKane using the iNuke EQ features proved positive that the Advance has untapped detailing potential beyond what it delivers normally from a traditional amplifier.

    While you are not yet aware and upto speed with Simvibe, you will see and learn how we can use frequencies for "specific effects" optimisation. With a combination of Simvibes own controls for each effect and then use the iNuke DSP to add more emphasis and enhancement to how the tactile unit delivers them.

    This is particularly going to show well in gear changes, engine effects and rpm detailing and will bring more potential than with a standard amplifier being used. Also something you can easily test/compare on/off for what enhancement the iNuke may be delivering.

    Speaker Cables & Connectors / Buttkickers - Amps
    As for speaker cable management and connection, got options to show you and posting this as an example of what can be done to offer easy connection/disconnection of the tactile units to the amplifiers.

    Here is one method I highlighted in the "audio cable and connectors guide" thread. Perhaps a tad more professional looking installation than the norm. *Quad Core (4) bi-wire cable can also be used to reduce the number of speaker cable runs between the cockpit and the amps too.

    Smart but simple......
    Example of using a home cinema AV wall plate to install as part of the cockpit, do you like?
    Multiple cables laying loose or how professional neat/tidy you want it is upto you...

    [​IMG]
    I particularly liked this satin finish...

    [​IMG]
    Enough channels to connect EM/ CM needed

    [​IMG]
    Nakamichi connectors can be used for front facing only or underneath as well.
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2017
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  18. signman

    signman
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    Mr Latte..thank you for the detail and hard work you have put into this.
    I very much appreciate it.

    How lucky we are to have Mr. Latte on this forum.

    I have sunk far too much into my rig already but I can't stop now.
    Speaking with you and Des the thought of having my rig come alive with simvibe and the BK's is super exciting.

    It's already given me so much pleasure, adding VR has took it to another level for me and that is after using gsync 27'' 144Hz triple's.

    Having raced real race car's and countless track day's I can honestly say I'm getting as much of a buzz from sim racing as I did the real thing.

    I can't get hurt and no fear of bringing the car home in bit's.
    Meet some super nice people too, all really helpful.

    Hope to develop my rig further with Mr Latte help.

    We have some experimenting ahead but most of the hard work has already been done I think with Mr Latte and Des Kane's extensive testing.

    The use of the DSP amp has really moved the goal post's.

    Will report back with more info on this project.
    I'm off to buy cabling and sound card's next.

    Signman
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2017
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  19. Mr Latte

    Mr Latte
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    No problems, I look forward to the excitement, to see what you do in tests or things you may come up with. So please do continue to share progress here. We need more threads like this and your tactile implementation could be something making a really special cockpit even better.