Better FFB physics in new updates.
- Thread starter Msportdan
- Start date
Msportdan
@Simberia
okay ive been reading up a lot about caster (due to the dw12 caster setting in rf2). Im wondering if the caster settings is the reason why were having these over centreing forces, in rre?
I cant seem to find a caster setting in the car setup so not sure what default these are set, if at all.
This seems to describe te effect im having with RRe:
Caster Angles
This article assumes you have either read the article on Caster Angle Basics, or are familiar with what is meant by these terms.
The pink arrow in the drawings below denotes the direction of travel of the model car.
What Do Caster Angles Do?
Caster is basically used to add to or detract from the directional stability of your model car. How the caster is set depends on the the method of drive that the car has, front wheel drive cars usually have very different caster settings than a rear wheel drive car, for example.
The whole basis of caster can be better understood by studying the image of the furniture/shopping trolley caster to the right. As there is horizontal difference (A) between the centres of the pivot points (marked by the red dots) and the top is also free to swivel (rotate) around, the wheel will take the path of least resistance and trail behind the direction of travel (supermarket trolleys seem to be excepted from this rule of course!).
The trailing effect that is caused by the horizontal difference between the centres of the top and bottom pivot points is the most important aspect to consider because, as stated above, front and rear wheel drive cars are ordinarily configured with different caster angles. More on this below.
In the images below the green patch represents the contact patch area of the tyres.
Neutral caster has the upper and lower pivot points alignedvertically. The forces that bear down on the car and the wheel have only a single vertical point of contact which is at the mercy of any external forces that may act upon it. Any car set with neutral caster will be an unstable one.
Negative caster, which is sometimes referred to as leading caster, has the upper pivot points positioned in front of the lower pivot points. Because of the horizontal offset between these two pivots the forces that bear down on the car are transmitted with aforward bias. Depending on the driving configuration of the car, this either adds stability or makes it un-drivable.
Positive caster, which is sometimes referred to as trailing caster, has the upper pivot points positioned in behind of the lower pivot points. Because of the horizontal offset between these two pivots the forces that bear down on the car are transmitted with arearward bias. Depending on the driving configuration of the car, this either adds stability or makes it un-drivable.
With negative and positive caster the horizontal offset between the pivot points of the wheels effectively gives two contact points, and the one with the greater force upon it creates a self centering effect that acts to keep the wheels pointing in the forward direction.
Why Stable & Unstable with the Same Setting?
The reason the same caster setting can generate such a difference is that front wheel drive and rear wheel drive cars generate their driving forces in different ways. Although front wheel drive cars are not popular (and sometimes banned) in radio controlled model car racing, we still feel that there is a need for them to be included.
The red arrows in the drawings below represent the direction of the driving forces on the model car and the pink arrows denote the direction of travel of the model car.
Rear Wheel Drive
The front wheels on a rear wheel drive car are propelled forward by the thrust created from the driving wheels (the rear wheels push the front ones). You will see why positive (trailing) caster adds stability, due to the pushing force, if you study the diagrams to either side.
Front Wheel Drive
Front wheel drive cars are not pushed by the rear wheels, they drag the rest of the car behind them. The driving torque provided by the front wheels mean that negative (leading) caster leads to a stabilising effect due to it pushing down on the front part of the tyre.
What About Four Wheel Wheel Drive?
The majority of four wheel drive remote controlled cars do not use permanent four wheel drive, they use one-way bearings to disengage the drive to the front wheels. As such, they are effectively rear wheel drive and benefit from positive caster. They are not as dependant on it as full time rear wheel drive cars though, as the drive to the front wheels adds stability, as well as increased tractive power.
Too Much Caster Leads to Instability
Increasing caster angles will only add stability to a certain point where the wheels will start to oscillate (shimmy). This is easily demonstrated by pushing a (good) shopping trolley as a reasonably fast speed. There are a couple of reasons why this happens;
The self centering effect of the wheels is not a free quirk of nature, it relies on an imbalance of forces being placed on the wheels. More caster angle generates more imbalance and there comes a time where this imbalance is too great.
Also, the greater the caster angle the greater the horizontal offset between the pivot points on the car. This will then elongate the contact patch and the loadings too much on the front or rear of the tyre and lead to sensitivity in the tyre to minor imperfections in the track surface.
I cant seem to find a caster setting in the car setup so not sure what default these are set, if at all.
This seems to describe te effect im having with RRe:
Caster Angles
This article assumes you have either read the article on Caster Angle Basics, or are familiar with what is meant by these terms.
The pink arrow in the drawings below denotes the direction of travel of the model car.
What Do Caster Angles Do?
Caster is basically used to add to or detract from the directional stability of your model car. How the caster is set depends on the the method of drive that the car has, front wheel drive cars usually have very different caster settings than a rear wheel drive car, for example.
The whole basis of caster can be better understood by studying the image of the furniture/shopping trolley caster to the right. As there is horizontal difference (A) between the centres of the pivot points (marked by the red dots) and the top is also free to swivel (rotate) around, the wheel will take the path of least resistance and trail behind the direction of travel (supermarket trolleys seem to be excepted from this rule of course!).
The trailing effect that is caused by the horizontal difference between the centres of the top and bottom pivot points is the most important aspect to consider because, as stated above, front and rear wheel drive cars are ordinarily configured with different caster angles. More on this below.
In the images below the green patch represents the contact patch area of the tyres.
Neutral caster has the upper and lower pivot points alignedvertically. The forces that bear down on the car and the wheel have only a single vertical point of contact which is at the mercy of any external forces that may act upon it. Any car set with neutral caster will be an unstable one.
Negative caster, which is sometimes referred to as leading caster, has the upper pivot points positioned in front of the lower pivot points. Because of the horizontal offset between these two pivots the forces that bear down on the car are transmitted with aforward bias. Depending on the driving configuration of the car, this either adds stability or makes it un-drivable.
Positive caster, which is sometimes referred to as trailing caster, has the upper pivot points positioned in behind of the lower pivot points. Because of the horizontal offset between these two pivots the forces that bear down on the car are transmitted with arearward bias. Depending on the driving configuration of the car, this either adds stability or makes it un-drivable.
With negative and positive caster the horizontal offset between the pivot points of the wheels effectively gives two contact points, and the one with the greater force upon it creates a self centering effect that acts to keep the wheels pointing in the forward direction.
Why Stable & Unstable with the Same Setting?
The reason the same caster setting can generate such a difference is that front wheel drive and rear wheel drive cars generate their driving forces in different ways. Although front wheel drive cars are not popular (and sometimes banned) in radio controlled model car racing, we still feel that there is a need for them to be included.
The red arrows in the drawings below represent the direction of the driving forces on the model car and the pink arrows denote the direction of travel of the model car.
Rear Wheel Drive
The front wheels on a rear wheel drive car are propelled forward by the thrust created from the driving wheels (the rear wheels push the front ones). You will see why positive (trailing) caster adds stability, due to the pushing force, if you study the diagrams to either side.
Front Wheel Drive
Front wheel drive cars are not pushed by the rear wheels, they drag the rest of the car behind them. The driving torque provided by the front wheels mean that negative (leading) caster leads to a stabilising effect due to it pushing down on the front part of the tyre.
What About Four Wheel Wheel Drive?
The majority of four wheel drive remote controlled cars do not use permanent four wheel drive, they use one-way bearings to disengage the drive to the front wheels. As such, they are effectively rear wheel drive and benefit from positive caster. They are not as dependant on it as full time rear wheel drive cars though, as the drive to the front wheels adds stability, as well as increased tractive power.
Too Much Caster Leads to Instability
Increasing caster angles will only add stability to a certain point where the wheels will start to oscillate (shimmy). This is easily demonstrated by pushing a (good) shopping trolley as a reasonably fast speed. There are a couple of reasons why this happens;
The self centering effect of the wheels is not a free quirk of nature, it relies on an imbalance of forces being placed on the wheels. More caster angle generates more imbalance and there comes a time where this imbalance is too great.
Also, the greater the caster angle the greater the horizontal offset between the pivot points on the car. This will then elongate the contact patch and the loadings too much on the front or rear of the tyre and lead to sensitivity in the tyre to minor imperfections in the track surface.
I spent some time on this game last night and I think it's starting to happen. The weight transfer of the car felt very good indeed and with a little more tweaking (But not on the same scale as project cars) I'm sure I'll be able to put more time into it.
On turn in, I always turn the wheel too much and have to correct. I have no idea why this is happening when I drive in R3E. I have not found a single FFB setting that has helped me adjust to this phenomenon.
I don't know how to describe it better than that.
Also, when I'm going straight the car is steering left and right ever so slightly that I have to correct for that too.
When these two things combine it is a horror show. Correcting for the straight line swaying of the car as I approach a corner and then the car turns in too much. I then watch the replay, wonder what is going on then take a break from the sim. A long break.
Help me.
I don't know how to describe it better than that.
Also, when I'm going straight the car is steering left and right ever so slightly that I have to correct for that too.
When these two things combine it is a horror show. Correcting for the straight line swaying of the car as I approach a corner and then the car turns in too much. I then watch the replay, wonder what is going on then take a break from the sim. A long break.
Help me.
James Cook
Marcas fan
Reduce steering lock? Personally I would keep linear steering input (50) but that's personal preference.
It has been mentioned that the swaying can be reduced by increasing toe on the rear wheels.
It has been mentioned that the swaying can be reduced by increasing toe on the rear wheels.
Or increase steering lock? I find that havine too tight steering lock I start weaving because my inputs are so exaggerated. I run 900 rotation on my wheel and 30 lock ingame, default lock is 13 and if I forget to adjust it before going on track I'll be weaving like crazy.
Hi,
All my Steering Locks are at default, .. e.g. 540/23 900/30 etc. etc..
Spent a lot of time fiddling with the Locks, .. which only resulted in frustration.
Ultimately, .. reducing the sensitivity of the wheel (currently at 35, but will probably change it back to 40), gives me far more precise control, .. especially when the wheel is just off centre, .. i.e. no floatiness or wandering .. or, in the curves .. i.e. no over-correcting, or spinning out etc..
Cheers
Tom
All my Steering Locks are at default, .. e.g. 540/23 900/30 etc. etc..
Spent a lot of time fiddling with the Locks, .. which only resulted in frustration.
Ultimately, .. reducing the sensitivity of the wheel (currently at 35, but will probably change it back to 40), gives me far more precise control, .. especially when the wheel is just off centre, .. i.e. no floatiness or wandering .. or, in the curves .. i.e. no over-correcting, or spinning out etc..
Cheers
Tom
If it works for you, then it's right, for you.
.. in your opinion.
.. so, what your saying, is that Sector 3 don't know what they are doing, .. and set up all the Steering Locks incorrectly.
You can disagree with my earlier posts, .. but, for some reason you disliked them. It's my opinion, and it's based on playing Force Feedback Racing games, .. and tweaking FF Wheels and their settings since the late 90s.
Of course, you are entitled to your opinion, and I am entitled to mine.
So, feel free to disagree with me, .. but, when you dislike my post(s), .. I can't profess to fathom what it was that I said, that would cause you to dislike them.
.. so, I reciprocated.
Oh, .. and the reason I reduce the Steering sensitivity (on my Thrustmaster TX), .. is to reduce the effect of moving from one notch to the other, .. as it is difficult to get smooth, precise movement between the belt teeth, .. especially when the wheel is centred, or in a gentle curve etc..
Msportdan
@Simberia
does anyone use a lower steering sensitivity..
My two issues with rre:
-overpowering centre force, that leads to swaying in and out of corners.
-Slight delay in car response to my wheel inputs, also contributes to the sway.
If i didnt have these issues i would buy up all the DLC uninstall pcars, and just have rre and rf2 as my sims.. Its that annoying to me....
dan
My two issues with rre:
-overpowering centre force, that leads to swaying in and out of corners.
-Slight delay in car response to my wheel inputs, also contributes to the sway.
If i didnt have these issues i would buy up all the DLC uninstall pcars, and just have rre and rf2 as my sims.. Its that annoying to me....
dan
Msportdan
@Simberia
yeah it is still wip but that's starting to feel pretty good to me If a little heavy. I will try slightly lower steering force intensity and down a bit on vertical load. Have you tried with some steering rack on?
Msportdan
@Simberia
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