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Before I got my racing licence from RD....

Discussion in 'RACE 07 Racing Club & Leagues' started by Dennis Phelan, Sep 9, 2014.

  1. Dennis Phelan

    Dennis Phelan
    more about staying on track. Premium Member

    ....I read the Licensed Member Agreement, now that I'm staff I try to abide by it even more. There is no accounting for mistakes or doing the best you can. Sometimes it's difficult to tell if you have not been driving by the rules. Our races are for fun, yet I see instances where a driver disadvantages another and does not abide by the Golden rule and wait. Clearly, some of our drivers need to give more respect to other drivers on the track.

    Here is a good read for everyone:
    this is not the RD law but good racing advice.

    Please try to not focus so much on going fast and placing, have more situation awareness, with it you can avoid getting a 30 day suspension the next time you knock someone and don't wait for them.
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2014
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  2. Dennis Phelan

    Dennis Phelan
    more about staying on track. Premium Member

    Adding this as I doubt everyone saw it last Tuesday.

    Too all drivers
    It is true, there is very little driving here that is over aggressive or intentional. We have drivers fresh in from their first appearances online all the way to league champions running races here in the RD clubs. Any one of them can make a mistake or have a bad day and make several :whistling:. Even though unintentional, when a mistake causes another driver to go off track or lose a place because of it, dome will feel hurt, taken advantage of and it can ruin their experience.

    Mistakes cannot be undone. The public servers are the only place where drivers freely get away with them. All the reputable sites that I have looked at and participated in events at have some form of run for drivers to follow when they have disadvantaged another driver, either a drive through the pit or as most, to simply wait and let the other driver regain his place. If you have had someone wait for you get the message that they made a mistake, that they are sorry and you go on feeling a bit better. If you had to stop, we have all had to stop, right. If you have had to stop and wait for another driver after an incident you know that this act has taken the sharp edge off of the competition and made you realize that we are in this for fun.

    League races are serious, teams and individuals are working hard to place as high as they can and the rules for the operation allow the fighting to go to a different level. Club racing is for fun. Everyone should walk away after an event having had fun, having had the best chance t o show what they can do as a driver, race engineer.. The RaceDepartment rules, the ones we all read and promised to obey are to provide for an event that brings about a good chance for a fair race.

    There are drivers running in our club events that are making mistakes at the expense of someone else. I follow the action during a race, I watch replays and see the innocent taps but with cars left behind. It is not my job as an organizer to call drivers out for the poor judgment they make. That call is to be made by the driver that has had his race taken away. When a driver has been infringed upon and does nothing, he is allowing the person that made the mistake to think that it is "OK" and acceptable behavior. When he gets no apology afterwards, when he does not get a satisfactory explanation for the event in a Personal Message[PM] after a cool down period then it is a problem and an incident report is in line. Happily :) I can say that we have very few incident reports and only a few real inquiries to me about how to deal with an on track problem. All incident reports are confidential, only the submitter and staff know of them, until maybe a penalty is given the offender.

    There is only one "harsh" penalty and that is for disobeying the Golden Rule. Always give back a spot taken by putting a driver off his line or off the track! That's it. The Golden rule is really the only rule. Being stupid, just making an error in braking, track position or making an aggressive pass are all OK as long as the Golden Rule is followed. The penalty of most any other offence is a warning the first time and if behavior is not changed will be increased at the next offence. Repeat offences get increased suspension times. But remember that breaking the Golden Rule will get your racing licence suspended the very first time.

    When the Golden Rule is followed, it forgives the incident that created it. The exception would be repeated bad driving actions by that driver.

    You may feel it is OK to be tapped and sent off track allowing that it is all just for fun anyhow. When it happens to another driver the feeling might be different. Please do not allow bad driving [breaking the Golden Rule] to continue. Have that PM and let the driver know that it hurt and report the incident if he thinks it was ok and staff[all of us] will look at it and decide.
    • Like Like x 3
  3. jimortality

    Premium Member

    Where to start Dennis, yes you're right in all that you have listed but.............. I feel there is a difference between making track mistakes and just people not very good such as myself. I understand the golden rule and If I felt I had caused an incident then I would follow that rule but always being at the back with no other drivers, I'm normally racing with myself lol. How does someone that is not too good at a game know what is poor judgement and what is just lack of skills? How am I to know If I'm braking too early and causing the person behind to take evasive action, I need to break where I feel the car will get round the corner without me spinning off. The person behind may be able to break at a later point because he is a more skilful driver. Just say I race with you, you're a more skilful and experienced driver and you come up behind me going into a corner. I'm aware you're there, and you're probably on the correct line but I'm not and you spun off because of that then how do you address things like that? It's spoilt your race but it was nothing more than lack of experience from me or a mistake. I'm wondering if it would help having novice races and when people got to a certain standard then they would be able to progress to a more experience lobby.
    • Like Like x 1
  4. Dennis Phelan

    Dennis Phelan
    more about staying on track. Premium Member

    JIm, thanks for your input. For a driver that makes a mistake, whether they be a brand new driver or a seasoned veteran, is to stop and await for the disadvantaged driver to return to the track ahead of him. It's really that simple.

    The driver ahead is seldom the culprit. If he is and it's because he's being malicious or aggressive* that can be dealt with. Drivers braking at different points is normal. Drivers running into the rear of another driver on braking happen and if this caused another car to go off line enough or off track, to be passed by the car then that car should slow and wait for the hit car to regain its position.

    Mixing skill levels of drivers is normal in any race. Each event has aa fastest driver and a slowest, with all others in between. At times fast drivers do find themselves in a spot where many slower drivers are ahead of them. They remember, first of all, that this is for fun, that their chance for a win is slim and continue on to maybe place in the top 8 for a good grid position for a second race if available or if "fantastic" drivers to regain a podium. They have a good chance to tap the rear of another car but I've seen those situations covered by the Golden Rule in action just about everytime. It's a mistake, anyone can make it and they cover their butts because they don't want to lose out on racing. Even if it's not a tap on the rear, maybe it's a good pass gone bad, often a driver will wait, I have, for a guy that's created his own bit of trouble.

    In today's race, I dropped down several places in the "turmoil" at T1 and ended up in a close battle with a driver for several laps. I could pull along side at the end of the long straight, could get alongside in several corners but many times had to back out to not cause an off. I bumped his rear, we tapped several times, all my fault. Each time I backed down rather than take advantage of the bump, losing some distance doing it and was quick enough to regain position close behind him, but I had to wait for him to have an off due to his own mistake before I could continue moving to the front. His brake points were different than mine, his lines and the way his car handled, all different. Mistakes were made by both drivers but no one was disadvantaged. I did see drivers waiting for other drivers today. I do know some did not. It's not rocket science, you use the mirrors, keep track of the drivers around you, slow or stop to let them back if you even think you have taken their race away.

    Maybe we should make everyone staff? Once I became staff I cut down the use of curbs and of putting most of the car over the line. I've become very sensitive to tapping other drivers and I can't ell you how many times I've slowed to allow someone back that I didn't even have to. I did it today! I would rather qualify to the back of the grid than get caught up in first lap taps, where I might have to have a really long lap allowing a driver to catch up so we can both go on. As "the most interesting man in the world" says, "I seldom make mistakes, but when I do, I follow the Golden Rule."

    *Aggressive, as in "dive bombing a corner" braking late, and heading to the apex early to squeeze just ahead of the car on the limit, on the fast line, usually ending with the dive bomber getting nailed by the good guy or nailing him, sometimes getting away with it.
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2014
  5. ajokay

    Real-ish Racer

    I think if you are a faster driver behind a slower driver (and you don't have the opportunity to get past immediately), then it is your duty to learn over the course of a lap or so how that slower driver operates, and learn where to make a move and where to not. Yes, you'll have to slow to their pace over the course of that lap, and you will be 'held up', but if you are fighting for a position then being held up is part and parcel of that, and the time for making up ground is when you heave some clear track ahead of you. Certainly a slower driver should never feel threatened or bullied to get out of the way if they find themselves in a situation where there's a faster driver behind.
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    • Agree Agree x 1
  6. Dennis Phelan

    Dennis Phelan
    more about staying on track. Premium Member

    I've found that the toughest things to learn about sim racing are being able to run right behind someone and as well, to be able to drive with someone right behind. It's a shame that so much of practice is hotlapping with drivers quitting the course once they catch another driver. Not many drivers ever go out for a long stint in a car they have set up ahead of time. It really is a problem of practice and the only practice at driving close seems to come at race time, ugly!

    To put it another way, too many drivers use practice to learn how to go fast around the course in the car of the day. No time is given to all the other aspects of racing. Consider the number of drivers that have no idea how to find or compute fuel consumption, just watch chat or listen on TS. How often does a driver find themselves stuck in the pit, unable to make a needed change.

    What we want the most from a multi-player experience is driving with other drivers. So how do you want to get that done? No matter what speed you can carry, from car setup or wheel handling skills, we all want to do it not with AI at 85-105% we want to be with other, real drivers. Why treat another driver poorly?
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  7. PaulH

    Premium Member

    A good read Dennis, this should be stickied in all the forums so all people read this :thumbsup: We all like to race and finish as high as possible but without hurting someone else's race is paramount in my book. But with all that I still think the overall level of driver at the racedepartment is very clean & fair :thumbsup: but good to remind people too ;)
    • Like Like x 1
  8. Dennis Phelan

    Dennis Phelan
    more about staying on track. Premium Member

    As much as a driver works at speed and consistency, he also has the responsibility to learn how to behave in traffic. Being fast is not good enough. Mistakes will be made, there is no doubt.

    Why this discussion? Who am I talking to? OK, maybe I'm just not making sense. The racing is good, we have very little in the way of aggressive driving going on and compare L1 T1 incidents with any race on a public server and it's easy to see we're doing great. Some drivers don't however seem to be recognizing their own mistakes. They don't see that nudge or the car disappearing from view as all they're interested in is staying with the leaders and not losing ground to anyone behind. Well, we all do that don't we. Anytime a mistake is made that involves contact with another car it should be asked, did I have anything to do with that and have I passed him or simply displaced him?

    When the mistake is recognized and properly attended to, there is no problem.

    When the driver doesn't recognize it or fails to give back the spot we have an incident. The problem in the club is with the driver that get pushed and loses the place without reporting the incident.

    The excuses are rampant, we're just here for fun, I only lost one place, I was lucky to be that highly placed anyhow, I don't want to see him punished, maybe it's a one time thing as he's never done that before. Been there, heard that and it will happen again unless the offender gets punished.

    So I'm looking for two things, drivers to be better when close and more reports of incidents.
    I can tell you from past episodes in the club that when incidents are reported the close driving gets better. One, drivers realize that they will get suspended for 30 days for a violation and two, all drivers get more time driving with others because they want only a clean pass. Suspended drivers either come back to do the same thing which gets them sent off for a longer period of time or they shape up and everyone gets a better deal out of it as they get the placings they deserve.

    Drivers get nudged off track and booted off track and apologies seem to come to easy. Too often because no reports are filed and no punishment given that offending driver has gotten very good at making apologies to other drivers.

    I've said before that I'm not supposed to be the policeman. If you lose position because you were bumped off your line[or off track], never to see that driver either slow or stop to wait for you, he is not giving you the respect you deserve and he should be reported, by you. You cannot excuse it as being just a fun event or any or for any other reason. When you do not report an incident and the driver goes on to disrespect another driver at a later time, you also share the responsibility for that.
  9. Arunas

    "Polite - punk" - Peter Ell

    Damn, now I'm afraid of racing here.. :speechless:
    • Haha Haha x 3
  10. Björn

    Ävver et Hätz bliev he in Kölle

    I think this is what it really comes down to - when incidents happen, there should be a reaction/reactions - mid-race, the advantage gained/disadvantage given should be nullified, i.e. wait for the driver you bumped, give back that position you gained by omitting Monza's T1, etc.
    After the race/in between events, one should reflect upon the driving leading to the incident and search for the errors made in order to not repeat them - in short: undertake measures to become an even better driver.

    If this works, everything's fine.

    Now, there are two ways it might not work out:
    • the driver causing the incident didn't wait - in this case, as Dennis pointed out, an incident report should be issued or at the very least be considered. IMHO, if the drivers involved immediately sort it out post-race, that's fine in my books - as long as it's NOT the regular behaviour of the person responsible
    • the driver causing the incident did wait, but it's not exactly the first crash he's in/has caused - he does not seem to be learning the lessons. In this scenario, it would be nice to be able to "warn"/inform the driver before outright suspending him for the 30 days (much like there have been messages about massive lagging in the past - nothing too official, but a firm reminder of what happened repeatedly). I don't know whether the "incident reporting system" of RD does actually allow such a warning - if so, then this "incident report light" might be a good way IMHO. If this doesn't improve the behaviour, a suspension would be the next step.
  11. H34d5h07

    No money, no team racing.

    I think this is a difficult subject. It should not be, I know, but it is.
    Firstly, I'm certain that no one is ramming people on purpose. We all have different breaking points and some have different racing lines and sooner or later, it will lead to an accident.

    Look at real life, WTCC, BTCC, and GT World. On almost every race, someone is crashing out due to hectic racing. Sometimes a driver might get penalized, but often they don't. Even when you see a love tap being made on purpose, and it might lead to someone going off. Racing control often comes up with the conclusion it was a racing incident.

    Now, we don't have the luxury to act like a racing control (unless an Admin specifically joins the server, but don't race) so all we have to go on is peoples ability to judge for them-selfs. And mostly, you will hear two sides of the same story.

    Even thou the club racing is for casual racing, you can't deny it's still very competitive.
    Even when you don't get any prize, no one want to finish last.

    All we can do is to simply sit down afterwards, look at the replay and judge from there.
    Even then, some might think they unfairly judged.
  12. Dennis Phelan

    Dennis Phelan
    more about staying on track. Premium Member

    It IS very simple. I do not see any ramming on purpose or running of cars off track.
    "Our" Race Control is mainly concerned with, "Did he stop to wait after the incident" whether contact was intentional or just a mistake. In either case, stopping to wait is the rule and the penalty from Race Control is a 30 day suspension.

    Understand that the Golden Rule is to wait if you have affected someones race, displacing them, or gaining position on them due to an error in driving or intent. It doesn't matter if your foot slipped off the pedal in braking or any other reason. You did it, you wait for him.

    For the Golden Rule there is only one side to the story, it's the video presented in an Incident Report. It will clearly show if a driver left after making contact that hurt someone's race.