You give them your money and you just be thankful they did not make you sign an NDA.
PC1 Banned for no reason!
- Thread starter Rob Every
- Start date
You give them your money and you just be thankful they did not make you sign an NDA.
It´s not far off from being an NDA
That text was the most ridiculous thing i´ve read from a company.
I know Apple for example has certain weird statements the their terms & agreements thing like you are not allowed to use the IOS software to plan, build, launch nuclear weapons but really this takes the price.
Mr Ross
I dont know you either, and BELIEVE ME, there are very many people who share my opinion about that effort they call a beta. OK they might be arrogant enough to think they give a damn like I was, but plenty have tried and left well alone, talk to some of the other teams running new stuff and see for yourself as I have.
But I should make one thing clear. I did not make this thread about the subject, it was included in a thread about the game, not as an independent thread, that was RACEd's decision.
I agree I was out of line, but I disagree I was vindictive. My only fault I can see is not channeling the complaint properly and hijacking a thread about laptimes which was stupid! But it seemed mildly appropriate seeing as though in most other games I can be within a reasonable time distance of those who are near the top. OK thats irrelevant again, its a beta, my mistake.
Not the best angle, and open for shouts of sour grapes. But when you have won money on Iracing and done reasonably in open server races there is an element of an argument there, as I say maybe not channeled in the right place or way. My reasons were that the FFB and steering were so bad you dont actually simulate to be quick, you just play try to beat the limits of what you are doing, that is categorically NOT simulation, as others have said here it is arcade gameplay. The limit in a sim should be you, not what you shouldnt be able to do? So, being unable to touch certain laptimes in a car that is alleged to be a sim left me to be rather frustrated about it.
I get the feeling WMD must be very touchy for more reasons than simply BETA testing. Things were said in much the same way on ISI (not by me) and their response would be more measured, maybe brutally honest if as blunt as I was, but not simply "Ban and then ban from anbother forum coz we are linked to them too" OK I did report what happened on nogrip later, but only the same as here and these (RACED) guys didnt seem to feel a ban was necessary, indeed made a point of highlighting the issue with a seperate thread.
I feel they are touchy for a reason, that may become clear perhaps in time. Either way I can do without their approach and their game and I hope this thread serves to highlight how a company maybe offers itself to the public, we are all different good or bad.
I dont know you either, and BELIEVE ME, there are very many people who share my opinion about that effort they call a beta. OK they might be arrogant enough to think they give a damn like I was, but plenty have tried and left well alone, talk to some of the other teams running new stuff and see for yourself as I have.
But I should make one thing clear. I did not make this thread about the subject, it was included in a thread about the game, not as an independent thread, that was RACEd's decision.
I agree I was out of line, but I disagree I was vindictive. My only fault I can see is not channeling the complaint properly and hijacking a thread about laptimes which was stupid! But it seemed mildly appropriate seeing as though in most other games I can be within a reasonable time distance of those who are near the top. OK thats irrelevant again, its a beta, my mistake.
Not the best angle, and open for shouts of sour grapes. But when you have won money on Iracing and done reasonably in open server races there is an element of an argument there, as I say maybe not channeled in the right place or way. My reasons were that the FFB and steering were so bad you dont actually simulate to be quick, you just play try to beat the limits of what you are doing, that is categorically NOT simulation, as others have said here it is arcade gameplay. The limit in a sim should be you, not what you shouldnt be able to do? So, being unable to touch certain laptimes in a car that is alleged to be a sim left me to be rather frustrated about it.
I get the feeling WMD must be very touchy for more reasons than simply BETA testing. Things were said in much the same way on ISI (not by me) and their response would be more measured, maybe brutally honest if as blunt as I was, but not simply "Ban and then ban from anbother forum coz we are linked to them too" OK I did report what happened on nogrip later, but only the same as here and these (RACED) guys didnt seem to feel a ban was necessary, indeed made a point of highlighting the issue with a seperate thread.
I feel they are touchy for a reason, that may become clear perhaps in time. Either way I can do without their approach and their game and I hope this thread serves to highlight how a company maybe offers itself to the public, we are all different good or bad.
I compared it to FVA, GSC, GTR EVO, rf2, Iceracing......and by every criteria it failed, terrible inconsistent/disconnected FFB, floaty steering, nearly impossible to crash thx to magic brakes, and unlike GTR evo espeically, it just doesn't feel remotely like a car...I assume you've actually driven a car?
Funny thing is, you pcars fans are sounding just as crazy as the iceracing nutters who often use the claims of you can't drive or you're broke if you don't accept iracing as the best...that said, at least iracing has excellent wheel precision, decent FFB, and a consistent driving model, if somewhat slippery.
I don't care if SMS are building a GT5/FM4 competitor, but calling this junk a sim ruins your credibility at forums where people have many of the respected sims and some of them even own cars in real life.....but then again, just like ban happy redi from nogrip, he also thought Shift2 was a sim and would challenge people to explain why it wasn't.
Try this setup, if you still think it's arcade, then nothing will change your mind.
Andy_J
I hate Race cheats ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
Rob, I sympathise with you. I detest it when moderators on other forums get linked up like in this case. I am a member on nogrip too and have read and seen whats going on. Their mods (well a few of them) seem to be connected with WMD and that Bell chap. They are banning or threatening to ban anyone that speaks up to criticise pcars. Moderators should be un-connected with commercial concerns and be un-biased.
I have just read one thread where a member is being threatened by a mod because he says what he feels about WMD's alpha investment. He says the firm is basically using junior and team members etc to pay up front to beta test and get nothing back in return except some money off the final over priced retail release. For that and speaking his mind he is threatened. That is not trolling is it?
It's pretty obvious that WMD are trying to control the various sim forums. Bell had a right moan about the VR reviews and how some were making negative comments but he could not do anything to stop them. Most of the guys I have seen warned or banned have not stated that pcars is rubbish, they have merely expressed an opinion on part of it or this or that does not feel right yet. Yes it's so called pre-alpha (I too getting fed up of that excuse) but if no one is allowed to report anything that they don't like without being banned from various forums then that is bad.
I hope it does turn out out to be a good race game (I won't say sim because it clearly is not aimed at the sim market) and I look forward to trying the completed demo and then a few months down the line, I'll buy it.
I have just read one thread where a member is being threatened by a mod because he says what he feels about WMD's alpha investment. He says the firm is basically using junior and team members etc to pay up front to beta test and get nothing back in return except some money off the final over priced retail release. For that and speaking his mind he is threatened. That is not trolling is it?
It's pretty obvious that WMD are trying to control the various sim forums. Bell had a right moan about the VR reviews and how some were making negative comments but he could not do anything to stop them. Most of the guys I have seen warned or banned have not stated that pcars is rubbish, they have merely expressed an opinion on part of it or this or that does not feel right yet. Yes it's so called pre-alpha (I too getting fed up of that excuse) but if no one is allowed to report anything that they don't like without being banned from various forums then that is bad.
I hope it does turn out out to be a good race game (I won't say sim because it clearly is not aimed at the sim market) and I look forward to trying the completed demo and then a few months down the line, I'll buy it.
I have to admit I was aware of the reputation of this stable after reading posts made in VirtualR and a few places, so I knew my occasionally caustic posts might cause a problem lol!
I too hope it turns out to be good, will happily be involved again, though now I guess I shall not be able to be. As I posted on WMD, a lot of what they have done is very good, pretty and imaginative.
But as you rightly both say, it is the immersion of FFB and steering that makes any game like this a sim, and if that is lacking then I am sorry but dont expect passionate people, who believe in their simming to not have an opinion.
I did not realise however that the forum was also used for very serious WORK and proper bug reporting, I thought it was just a portal. Had I known this I might have been a little less daft. For that I would apologise could I have had a right to reply!
But I am not knowledgeable to make bug reports or huge posts about code, just what I feel as a punter!
I too hope it turns out to be good, will happily be involved again, though now I guess I shall not be able to be. As I posted on WMD, a lot of what they have done is very good, pretty and imaginative.
But as you rightly both say, it is the immersion of FFB and steering that makes any game like this a sim, and if that is lacking then I am sorry but dont expect passionate people, who believe in their simming to not have an opinion.
I did not realise however that the forum was also used for very serious WORK and proper bug reporting, I thought it was just a portal. Had I known this I might have been a little less daft. For that I would apologise could I have had a right to reply!
But I am not knowledgeable to make bug reports or huge posts about code, just what I feel as a punter!
You people are crazy and probably spoiled. They give you opportunity to be a part of the biggest development team in history. Isn't it the opportunity you have been waiting for, to be a part of game development, giving support and ideas what would you like to be included. Because people like you they should not show anything, you refuse to understand that this game is under HEAVY development and most importantly you didn't even bother to read Terms and Conditions when you signed up. They stated months ago that builds can vary between very good and absolute disaster. How hard can it be to understand that everything is not perfect all the time. I'm all for it to give whiners a red card. Just put yourself at their position, how good you feel if someone whines about your work and constantly telling you are doing bad work and you are not good enough to make things better. People who have to work they can't take this kind of crap all the time.
So please stop this and think more about others than yourself.
This post is for those who feel offended by it.
So please stop this and think more about others than yourself.
This post is for those who feel offended by it.
Err, i have apologised.
But I was not allowed to do this to anyone at WMD, if you read this thread carefully you will see various apologies. and also some more detailed reasons why I lost my head a little.
In all honesty though, unless you are fluent in game design what good really are you going to do in a BETA test. Most gamers might know a little, but they rely on feel and what it is like as a finished product, they are not involved in the early stages because they know nothing about game design!
I wouldn't expect to be allowed to help designing the new Ferrari F1 car as I don't know anything about CAD or F1 level aerodynamics. So why would I expect to be able to contribute much to the design of a game? Other than telling them what feels right or what feels wrong? I did this to some degree and they didn't like it! My fault, no-one elses.
What has been interesting in all this, is that very few people have actually said if they LIKE the FFB and steering. I know some are OK with it, but more than a few at the least say it needs work. And the busy people at WMD have never offered to explain why it feels so odd in comparison to most other proper sim based racing games? As I said repeatedly on their forum, this is a pivotal, central, vital part of the game. Getting it right should be their greatest priority. I hope they manage it
But I was not allowed to do this to anyone at WMD, if you read this thread carefully you will see various apologies. and also some more detailed reasons why I lost my head a little.
In all honesty though, unless you are fluent in game design what good really are you going to do in a BETA test. Most gamers might know a little, but they rely on feel and what it is like as a finished product, they are not involved in the early stages because they know nothing about game design!
I wouldn't expect to be allowed to help designing the new Ferrari F1 car as I don't know anything about CAD or F1 level aerodynamics. So why would I expect to be able to contribute much to the design of a game? Other than telling them what feels right or what feels wrong? I did this to some degree and they didn't like it! My fault, no-one elses.
What has been interesting in all this, is that very few people have actually said if they LIKE the FFB and steering. I know some are OK with it, but more than a few at the least say it needs work. And the busy people at WMD have never offered to explain why it feels so odd in comparison to most other proper sim based racing games? As I said repeatedly on their forum, this is a pivotal, central, vital part of the game. Getting it right should be their greatest priority. I hope they manage it
You don't have to be fluent in game design, no one ask you do. You can only be around and try the builds, vote and give some design ideas or whatever. If you are in with 10 euros you have nothing to loose.
FFB, physics are still under development, they probably always don't know what is wrong. That's why there are testing and continuous builds. Every game has this progress but only SMS is doing it openly for everyone to try. We can't attack them because of this.
You can only be around and try the builds, vote and give some design ideas or whatever. If you are in with 10 euros you have nothing to loose.FFB, physics are still under development, they probably always don't know what is wrong. That's why there are testing and continuous builds. Every game has this progress but only SMS is doing it openly for everyone to try. We can't attack them because of this.
This is why I have extreme doubts about the sim nature of this game , ie, they could've had the sim community on side months ago by releasing just one sim car, yet instead, the cars are in a disturbing state....at least for anyone who cares about sims.
Rob, you seem now in the light of things to be a pretty reasonable guy. It's a shame you were not like this at first mate as they don't expect everyone to like the game and worship the ground they work on. They just want some constructive feedback something that you by your own admission got wrong first time round with the Flatout comments etc. It's a shame
Your right it's very car dependent but as you are aware there is still over a year left of fine tuning the physics etc. I think the FFB personally is some of the best out there.
I don't find stuff like iRacing realistic in the slightest, that possibly is the most unrealistic sim out there today in terms of physics. I do still like NetKar alot though but i see a huge amount of potential in pCARS.
The fact that NetKar is seen as the real competition to beat by the devs suggests it will be more of a sim than any of you think.
It was the same with NetKar when it first came onto the scene, it got slaughtered because it was not a driving on ice sim like rF etc. But now and for the last few years it's gained alot of respect for being THE sim for physics
Your right it's very car dependent but as you are aware there is still over a year left of fine tuning the physics etc. I think the FFB personally is some of the best out there.
I don't find stuff like iRacing realistic in the slightest, that possibly is the most unrealistic sim out there today in terms of physics. I do still like NetKar alot though but i see a huge amount of potential in pCARS.
The fact that NetKar is seen as the real competition to beat by the devs suggests it will be more of a sim than any of you think.
It was the same with NetKar when it first came onto the scene, it got slaughtered because it was not a driving on ice sim like rF etc. But now and for the last few years it's gained alot of respect for being THE sim for physics
Mr Ross
My comments were largely based on the gameplay feel. I have never really been involved in a BETA before, so was rather unaware of the situation!
My comment about Flatout was how that game made you FEEL! It was really rather good, and believe it or not I could only play it on the keyboard! So when you try something that is lauded as being a sim and it feels as untogether as CARS did when I tried it the disappointment is huge. Even though it was a basic game you could grasp the controls and start to get into it. I did get somewhere there in CARS, but the overall feel of the car was so wide of the mark I felt it should be mentioned, in whichever way.
Am not sure I share your feelings about Iracing either, I have not played the game for some time, but found it superb and very, very sim feeling when I tried it over a year ago. This was obvious to me as I didnt even register for the forum!
It was engaging, immersive and accurate, things which at the moment are very lacking in CARS. And the way the game was played encouraged these aspects of driving too. I simply can not afford to play the game to any level. I could if I could be bothered to just race the base cars all the time, but when you have to pay still for tracks and stuff I just think that isa bit OTT for me, but it does seem to work in the US particularly.
Gotta be honest I tried NKP briefly but was left a little bewildered by the way it all was supposed to happen, hopefully the new version is a little bit better put together, even though the feeling itself was good,
My comments were largely based on the gameplay feel. I have never really been involved in a BETA before, so was rather unaware of the situation!
My comment about Flatout was how that game made you FEEL! It was really rather good, and believe it or not I could only play it on the keyboard! So when you try something that is lauded as being a sim and it feels as untogether as CARS did when I tried it the disappointment is huge. Even though it was a basic game you could grasp the controls and start to get into it. I did get somewhere there in CARS, but the overall feel of the car was so wide of the mark I felt it should be mentioned, in whichever way.
Am not sure I share your feelings about Iracing either, I have not played the game for some time, but found it superb and very, very sim feeling when I tried it over a year ago. This was obvious to me as I didnt even register for the forum!
It was engaging, immersive and accurate, things which at the moment are very lacking in CARS. And the way the game was played encouraged these aspects of driving too. I simply can not afford to play the game to any level. I could if I could be bothered to just race the base cars all the time, but when you have to pay still for tracks and stuff I just think that isa bit OTT for me, but it does seem to work in the US particularly.
Gotta be honest I tried NKP briefly but was left a little bewildered by the way it all was supposed to happen, hopefully the new version is a little bit better put together, even though the feeling itself was good,
Listen please just call me Lee and not Mr Ross. Your missing the whole part of what " Pre-Alpha" means and that's why some elements feel unfinished as you put it. Your comment about Flatout was not put across in the original post as your saying it was intended. You said it sucked basically compared to every other sim you have played and that even Flatout drove better.
Look at the end of the day there are people round here and elsewhere who just refuse to accept that SMS are serious when they say they will produce a sim. Part of that is mainly the SHIFT series IMO, it left a nasty taste for alot of people and people just can not move on.
To be judging a sim that is maybe 15% complete in terms of features, physics etc is just really very stupid. I mean if you were to try say GTR3 and Assetto a year before release it would feel just as unfinished. Look at rF2 as an example on release, it has major flaws with tyres and various other parts were or still are severly broken and that sim is in bloody beta and been under development for far longer than say the few months pCARS has been.
If you can't hack the Alpha ride and watching the game develop then i'm afraid that is down to you and others on this thread and not SMS's fault. You should of read up before joining and learnt what Pre-Alpha means and going by yours and others posts on here would of been better waiting for the final " finished " game. IMO we should be embracing this chance to see a game grow and mature like we can with pCARS.
Because it's SMS people throw their dummys out and start acting like physics gurus and stating it should not be like this, it's not right it doesn't feel like a game from 2006, well duh....of course it doesn't, it's 2012
Cut them slack and understand that it's a long process in getting the game right, it's not a five minute job.
About iRacing, FFB and online is great but physics it lacks completely.
Look at the end of the day there are people round here and elsewhere who just refuse to accept that SMS are serious when they say they will produce a sim. Part of that is mainly the SHIFT series IMO, it left a nasty taste for alot of people and people just can not move on.
To be judging a sim that is maybe 15% complete in terms of features, physics etc is just really very stupid. I mean if you were to try say GTR3 and Assetto a year before release it would feel just as unfinished. Look at rF2 as an example on release, it has major flaws with tyres and various other parts were or still are severly broken and that sim is in bloody beta and been under development for far longer than say the few months pCARS has been.
If you can't hack the Alpha ride and watching the game develop then i'm afraid that is down to you and others on this thread and not SMS's fault. You should of read up before joining and learnt what Pre-Alpha means and going by yours and others posts on here would of been better waiting for the final " finished " game. IMO we should be embracing this chance to see a game grow and mature like we can with pCARS.
Because it's SMS people throw their dummys out and start acting like physics gurus and stating it should not be like this, it's not right it doesn't feel like a game from 2006, well duh....of course it doesn't, it's 2012
Cut them slack and understand that it's a long process in getting the game right, it's not a five minute job.
About iRacing, FFB and online is great but physics it lacks completely.
Fair enough
But I will only say this.
I have tried other games at a similar level that were very different, they maybe didnt offer as much in other areas, but in the area it matters, they were pretty close.
Seems we differ on Iracing, I thought the whole package was great, especially the oval cars which were spot on (coming from someone who has driven on short ovals and talking to guys online who do to).
And Andy, me too, though Shift 1 was not great, it was doable and I enjoyed playing it. Unleashed on the otherhand was terrible, and I took it back after a week, just amde the game very unenjoyable for me
But I will only say this.
I have tried other games at a similar level that were very different, they maybe didnt offer as much in other areas, but in the area it matters, they were pretty close.
Seems we differ on Iracing, I thought the whole package was great, especially the oval cars which were spot on (coming from someone who has driven on short ovals and talking to guys online who do to).
And Andy, me too, though Shift 1 was not great, it was doable and I enjoyed playing it. Unleashed on the otherhand was terrible, and I took it back after a week, just amde the game very unenjoyable for me
As I said before, I fully agree regarding iceracings physics, and actually rf2 ain't much better, I mean it is, but that's one slippery bitch as well, but at least there's no huge cost outlay, and for me at least, that Redbull F1 is quite a beast.
However, regarding pcars, I'm simply curious why they won't finished one sim car....?
Consider that Shift2 wouldn't have required much work to transform it into the best simcade driving model, yet months and months later, all we get is a bunch of pretty cars, none of which drove well by any criteria.
People can still dl the free GTR2 demo from 2006 and get a 600hp Lambo and Ferrari, and even with a 360 gamepad, you'll know what a sim drives like.
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