Assetto Corsa easy driving

[ganso2014]

Since 1.0 RC my feelings are that is too easy to drive, even with the TC set to cero.

Anybody think the same?

 

[Dan Allen]

hhhmm i agree dan,, ill have to watch this vid...

but i find gsce a bit like playing race07.. its good but doesnt really feel like your playing a game in 2014/! Suppose where i think it looks old i automatically judge it as inferior.

I would respectully disagree. GSCE and Race 07 feel very different to me. Race 07 is the older version of R3E whilst GSCE is based on the rFactor engine IIRC...

 

[Dan Allen]

So what's so great about rF2's physics? Static camber, wild tyre temps and non-existing ride height?

But you can change all that (certainly ride height and camber). I find that it works for me anyway.

 

[Msportdan]

think im going mad, here. I just put RF2 on, and im sure GSCE felt better lol.. in the isi vette gt it felt bad lol....

think I should giv esims a rest for a while lol !

 

[Dan Allen]

think im going mad, here. I just put RF2 on, and im sure GSCE felt better lol.. in the isi vette gt it felt bad lol....

think I should giv esims a rest for a while lol !

It's based on the RF1 engine, not 2

 

[Fernando Deutsch]

It has been ages since I have not driven any ISI based sim. I remember for rF1 there was a FF plugin, LeoFF I think was, which greately enhances the FF.

I have tried twice the rF2 demo, but I just cannot make it look and feel as good as AC. It may require more configuration and customization on files that I am willing to go through.

Now I have an offer from iRacing of three months for 9.99 dollars. Not sure if I will bait it. I am enjoying a lot AC, but at some times it kinds of bore me, same tracks and same cars on the public servers. Too bad people are not trying different combos of street cars and some tracks that suites pretty well on them.

 

[David Cordell]

I know I got sick and tired of GT3's at Spa really quickly. I really don't know why there's such a fuss over that track. Pretty boring track for me.

Too bad people are not trying different combos of street cars and some tracks that suites pretty well on them.

 

[Andi Goodwin]

@ Dan Allen ;
just a quick one ...
gsc,
race 07,
gtr ,
gtr2,
rf2,
r3e ,
pcars
all have rf1 as there bastard parent , ok they may have been tweeked , added to taken away from enhanced ; fed steroids or spanked lightly but there is a hell of a lot of the maths in there that is from the same gene pool

iracing ... is papyrus nascar 2003
i believe ac gets dna from nkp

take a trip around the folders in the controllers look for the files

Andi

 

[Fernando Deutsch]

SPA was a fresh breath of oxygen, but as you said, we are getting too much of it.

There are very good tracks that I never see online, like Vallelunga and Magione. Some cars are a blast, to not only drive, but to race with them, like the Abarth 500, Lotus 2-11, some street BMWs, etc.

 

[Msportdan]

actually i popped on RF2 last night and i wasnt impressed with the handling, everything seems dull after playing GSCE imo. so ive adjusted my ultimate sim..

So what is nearest to the real thing?
-Rre AI, sound
-pcars visuals (not that ive seen it in the flesh/pixel)
-RF2 realroad and weather
-Gsce physics & FFB-
-AC suspension physics also and the ability to make you feel at the wheel of a car
-Iracings MP.

 

[Adria Perez]

SPA was a fresh breath of oxygene, but as you said, we are getting too much of it.

There are very good tracks that I never see online, like Vallelunga and Magione. Some cars are a blast, to not only drive, but to race with them, like the Abarth 500, Lotus 2-11, some street BMWs, etc.

Indeed. Every time I check the public servers this comes to my mind:

Spa Spa Spa everywhere!

 

[Ghoults]

It is kinda odd there is this opinion still with some sim racers that driving real cars should be difficult. How many of these people have driven a kart in real life for example and when they have stepped out of the kart thinking "wow this thing is really difficult to drive! It just spins out sometimes without no chance of recovering. Totally unexpectedly". No one ever.

I think one of the major reasons for this belief is the early racing games which had the icy spin problem and some people thought it was realistic. Sportscar gt, f1 2000, gtr and gtr2. And lots of rf mods. In modern sims that phenomena is finally getting pretty difficult to find (it is unrealistic after all) but for some reason there are still quite a few sim racers who seem to want that kind of additional difficulty. This also puts some pressure to some sims to err on the side of difficulty (iracing) while others who had major issues with this before have learned (isi).

I still look back to the early 2000 and the sims we had back then. At the time I was so disappointed with all the sim having that icy spin problem. I still remember driving sportscar gt and in lime rock out of the last turn if you get little bit loose it is fine but get it just a little bit too much and off you go no matter what you do. Then came f1 2000 and 2001. Same issue. So annoying. Then the sportscar mod for f1 2001 (I think). Again. I remember (trying to) driving some gt porsche around monaco and once again going off at tiny slip angles just becuase the person making the physics thought tire lateral and longnitudal grip drops to 0 at 15 slip angle.

Even some of the arcade racers took this approach and made their cars to spin around like on ice once you get little more slip angle in.

Yes that was difficult to drive. Realistic? Nope. If that physics model was realistic we would have super models spinning her ferrari into lamp post every second. But it just doesn't happen. People build volvos with 400000 hp and then drift it around their barn just for the kicks... not dying... not even spinning around.

 

[gamer19]

...I still remember driving sportscar gt and in lime rock out of the last turn if you get little bit loose it is fine but get it just a little bit too much and off you go no matter what you do...

Oh... Limerock('s last turn).... and Sportscar.... memories, memories. I remember that, too.
It was hard, frustrating but, in some perverted way, highly rewarding.
Like... if you ever tried Grand Prix Legends, it was hard just to stay on black stuff but when you manage it for one lap or, somehow, on two straight laps... smile comes to your face. It never happened with this F1 series, tbh. And, amazingly, when you crash in GPL (and you crash ...a lot) it never feel like "arrrgh... this damn, stupid, bloody, unrealistic game", every time I know - it was me. Every time.
And (maybe it's just me) that smile reappears again. Every time.

 

[Cote Dazur]

Reading @Ghoults and @gamer19 post highlight the 2 aspects of SIM and why we will never all agree on the one we prefer, or even might not be possible to be happy with only one.
Ghoults speak about simulation and how it should be as close as possible to the real thing while gamer highlights the fun factor of getting over a set of challenges in a Computer game.
I am 100% behind Ghoults as this is what I am looking for, and that is what I hope AC will bring me.
But on the other end I might play something else every once in a while just strictly for fun and then I don't care about reality anymore, just the entertainment of some challenge to overcome.

 

[gamer19]

Man... you obviously missing ...something.
I was "looking for fun and entertainment" only ?
Ok, forget Sportscar GT - did you ever tried GPL ?
Or you are but you think it's made for ...fun ?!? It's not realistic ? Then, if that's so, if GPL isn't, what is ?
Game is released in 1998 but still have better physics then some shiny new expensive ...simulations.
Btw, playing AC with stock Lotus 49 on old Monza... kind of reminds me of good old GPL. Kind of...

 

[Cote Dazur]

@gamer19, I might be missing something and I apologized if you felt my comment was in any way not representing what I thought you wrote.
when you wrote "It was hard, frustrating but, in some perverted way, highly rewarding" and "if you ever tried Grand Prix Legends, it was hard just to stay on black stuff but when you manage it for one lap or, somehow, on two straight laps... smile comes to your face" I did not realized that for you this was realistic, I thought you where saying, this is unrealistically hard but somehow still very enjoyable.
My mistake.
I am not implying either that neither of the game you have mentioning are less in any way than AC, although, as I am familiar with them, Assetto Corsa, is much closer to me , in light of my experience of driving real cars, in simulating real driving, than any of the other SIM mentioned.

 

[gamer19]

Oh c'mon... no need to appologise now.... It was just missunderstanding.
Yes, I said it was bloody hard but at a same time I meant that it was just the way it should be, cause driving these monsters wasn't easy. At all. And you couldn't become F1 driver like novadays. Couldn't jump into F1 from highly respected - carting series. lol
But... on the other hand...
even one F1 driver (couldn't remember now which one) said it's harder to drive car (in some real simulation ofc) than in real life. That means we're all qualified for F1 grid, right? But of course reason that he said that is because you can't feel the forces and car behaviour when you sit in front of your PC (or, God forbid, PS, Xbox, Wii,...) and.... drive. And when you see (seeing is not the same as feel sadly) or hear (if you have "effects" slider set loud enough) that your car start to loose grip... it may already be too late. Usualy it is.
But on the lighter note here's one relaxing video for (all of) you:

Well.... he's insane driving geek. I know how hard it was. I could never drive like this.

 

[Quas]

It is kinda odd there is this opinion still with some sim racers that driving real cars should be difficult. How many of these people have driven a kart in real life for example and when they have stepped out of the kart thinking "wow this thing is really difficult to drive! It just spins out sometimes without no chance of recovering. Totally unexpectedly". No one ever.

I disagree with this post on so many levels, it's like we're living on two different planets. It's funny you would use karts as your example as in 20 years of working with cars, driving many fast, much more crappy ones onroad, offroad and on track i have yet to come across anything more spinhappy and harder to recover than a kart. This comes from a guy that turns off ESP & TC for a 700km trip on snowy roads in an M3.
Karting is serious motorsport. Did you ever try to truly push any other kart than those entry level rentals on a remotely bumpy track? You will be facing backwards sooner than you can say "icy problem".
Ever been on a trackday? People spin all the time. Some of them true gearheads with great tracktoys, they can't be all noobs. I remember the "Bridge to Gantry" guy saying there hasn't been a single weekend without multiple crashes on the Nordschleife in years.
Spins in racing are more common than broken legs in skiing, it's just part of the game.

I think one of the major reasons for this belief is the early racing games which had the icy spin problem and some people thought it was realistic. Sportscar gt, f1 2000, gtr and gtr2. And lots of rf mods. In modern sims that phenomena is finally getting pretty difficult to find (it is unrealistic after all) but for some reason there are still quite a few sim racers who seem to want that kind of additional difficulty. This also puts some pressure to some sims to err on the side of difficulty (iracing) while others who had major issues with this before have learned (isi).

I still look back to the early 2000 and the sims we had back then. At the time I was so disappointed with all the sim having that icy spin problem. I still remember driving sportscar gt and in lime rock out of the last turn if you get little bit loose it is fine but get it just a little bit too much and off you go no matter what you do. Then came f1 2000 and 2001. Same issue. So annoying. Then the sportscar mod for f1 2001 (I think). Again. I remember (trying to) driving some gt porsche around monaco and once again going off at tiny slip angles just becuase the person making the physics thought tire lateral and longnitudal grip drops to 0 at 15 slip angle.

Even some of the arcade racers took this approach and made their cars to spin around like on ice once you get little more slip angle in.

You imply that people base their opinion on inferior sims instead of real life and then start to list some EA games as your simracing credentials which i don't think is helping your cause at all. Of all the games you listed i would only classify the GTR titles as sims, although i never was a big fan of the physics. I'd go as far as saying even the latest 2 or 3 Gran Turismo titles are more sim than the games you mentioned.
But good sims have been here all the time, you've just been looking in the wrong places. LFS is more than ten years old and still hard to match regarding physics. The vast majority of rF1 mods is crap but HGTTC is out for about 7 years also.
Papyrus started making somewhat realistic sims in the same week the wheel was invented .

Yes that was difficult to drive. Realistic? Nope. If that physics model was realistic we would have super models spinning her ferrari into lamp post every second. But it just doesn't happen. People build volvos with 400000 hp and then drift it around their barn just for the kicks... not dying... not even spinning around.

I'm sorry but this is again total nonsense from my point of view.
People with more money than skills crash their supercars all the time.
Watch this guy, he's neither driving a RWD Ferrari nor do i believe he's a super-model (purely speculating on the latter):

That's an AWD car that he manages to spin at low speeds on dry tarmac.
Guess he had a bit of an "icy problem".
I consider myself a decent driver and yet, on the way to our last family vacation i completely misjudged a corner in a 143hp diesel with slightly used Pirelli tires on M-Sport wheels (dry roads).
Got into a drift at about 140kph and nearly killed myself, the lady and the dog.
Icy problem? Nope, just a tired driver and a meaty weight transfer.

The last bit is beyond comprehension for me. Are you implying there's no spins in drifting?
Ever been on a drift event, where spins in 400hp cars are as common as damaged tires?
Obviously the latest Ken Block Gymkhana or D1 highlights vid won't show you all the spins that happened between all those fancy "1cm-from-the-wall-drifts". But that doesn't mean that everyone with 2 years of simracing practice can do the same.


I'm not an AC "hater", as i said earlier i like it and would buy it again. It's just not at the very top of my list of realistic sims (yet?), which must be a valid opinion to have, even in Assetto Corsas part of the forum. It's convenient to label the sim you find the easiest to drive as the most realistic. There must be room for different opinions too, though.

GSCE & LFS (excluding HGTTC here because of my lack of hard driving experience in cars and on tracks of that era) make me feel very close to what happens when i or some other mortal overcome our initial fears and start to push towards the limit.

AC makes me feel a bit like lapping a modern 911 turbo with Walter Röhrl:
You're going faster than everyone else, while still feeling more save and relaxed and having less movement in the car than in those laps you did on your own or with "inferior" drivers.
This is the perfect analogy, because where i live it's common knowledge that Walter has the ability of rising above the laws of physics . (Just teasing a bit)

Of course, this is the AC forum and people will vote posts praising it's realism up, and tend to dislike critical voices. I don't care, i'm here for a discussion and my points are up to debate, who knows, maybe i'll learn something.
But if a "No spins in karting, no spins by women in Ferraris & no spins in drifting (!)" post is what y'all gonna agree with, then i will rest my case, gentlemen .

 

[Ghoults]

Karting is serious motorsport. Did you ever try to truly push any other kart than those entry level rentals on a remotely bumpy track? You will be facing backwards sooner than you can say "icy problem".

I've driven some relatively fast karts on outdoor track. I never spun around unexpectedly. Of course if you are rash with your inputs anything can feel snappy and difficult to drive.

You imply that people base their opinion on inferior sims instead of real life and then start to list some EA games as your simracing credentials which i don't think is helping your cause at all. Of all the games you listed i would only classify the GTR titles as sims, although i never was a big fan of the physics.

I did not imply that. I did not list games that I think are sims. I listed games with that icy spin issue. What I meant was that some people have played those games I listed so much that they have got so used to that kind of unpredictability that for them it feels so easy when you play more realistic sim which doesn't have icy spins. Which is of course very natural feeling if you come from something that is harder than real life to something that is more realistic or thereabouts.

I'm sorry but this is again total nonsense from my point of view.
People with more money than skills crash their supercars all the time.

Most crashes on track happen because of too much speed, wrong driving inputs and lack of proper technique. There are lots of vids on youtube where drivers drive on race track one hand on the wheel for full straightaways with other hand on the shifter. People who have never heard about heel and toe. People who go into turns too fast, brake abruptly and then make sudden steering input but then when they need to counter steer they either freeze or countersteer really really slowly. In sims we don't even need to use h-shifters and clutches.

The only thing those videos prove that it is possible to spin a car. For any spin video there are about 100 videos where the driver doesn't spin. If you want anecdotal evidence that agrees with your opinions there is a youtube video that agrees with you no matter what your opinion is. Just because it is possible fail at something doesn't mean it is difficult.

The last bit is beyond comprehension for me.

After reading the rest of your response I think this is correct assumption.

It's convenient to label the sim you find the easiest to drive as the most realistic. There must be room for different opinions too, though.

I never said ac is the most realistic. Again you are putting words in my mouth. I don't think I even mentioned ac...

GSCE & LFS (excluding HGTTC here because of my lack of hard driving experience in cars and on tracks of that era) make me feel very close to what happens when i or some other mortal overcome our initial fears and start to push towards the limit..

We all can have any opinion we want. Just because yours is different doesn't mean someone else is wrong.

But if a "No spins in karting, no spins by women in Ferraris & no spins in drifting (!)" post is what y'all gonna agree with, then i will rest my case, gentlemen .

It doesn't exactly help your "case" when you misinterpret what I said. I said it is super easy to drift 4000hp volvo around a barn. I never said nobody ever spins in drifting.

When writing this response to your post at times it felt you were replying to someone else. You disagree with me about topics I never I mentioned in my posts!

Man... you obviously missing ...something.
I was "looking for fun and entertainment" only ?
Ok, forget Sportscar GT - did you ever tried GPL ?
Or you are but you think it's made for ...fun ?!? It's not realistic ? Then, if that's so, if GPL isn't, what is ?
Game is released in 1998 but still have better physics then some shiny new expensive ...simulations.
Btw, playing AC with stock Lotus 49 on old Monza... kind of reminds me of good old GPL. Kind of...

I played gpl religiously back in the day! Gpl was the first sim that felt natural. It was not random spinfest. Compared to sportscar gt or f1 2000 I spun far less often in gpl. I remember downloading the gpl demo somewhere in the 1999. After one hour of driving I had to get it. It was just so good. Totally above and beyond anything else around that time. For me that game was not just somewhat realistic at the time but also great fun.

Of course gpl has its issues too. But it was a great sim. For some people my experiences with gpl may seem strange. I read that a lot of people who first tried gpl were spinning all the time. But for me it was the opposite. In scgt, gtr, f1 2000 and that sportscar mod. Spin, spin, spin, saved it, nah it spun the other way. In gpl I could take corners in 4 wheel slide!

I have no problems admitting that for me realism is fun. I'm not hardcore in the sense that I enjoy setup changes taking minutes or hours, using virtual hammer to fix the body panel damage or scrubbing tires or breaking in brakes. For me gpl was one of those sims that were just fun to play. Sportscar gt was kinda short time deal but it was my first "sim" so it has some nostalgia value. A lot actually compared to how highly I actually rate it.

But I'm not a realism snob. I have enjoyed my share of gran turismos and more arcadey stuff as well. I probably played gt5 for hundreds of hours. Gt1 and gt2 as well. Of course gt5 is arcadish but there are still fun cars in that game. Honda s2000 with comfort soft tires is very nicely handling car just like the nsx. But of course it is not that realistic when you look at stuff in finer detail.

 

[Stig Bidstrup]

Oh c'mon... no need to appologise now.... It was just missunderstanding.
Yes, I said it was bloody hard but at a same time I meant that it was just the way it should be, cause driving these monsters wasn't easy. At all. And you couldn't become F1 driver like novadays. Couldn't jump into F1 from highly respected - carting series. lol
But... on the other hand...
even one F1 driver (couldn't remember now which one) said it's harder to drive car (in some real simulation ofc) than in real life. That means we're all qualified for F1 grid, right? But of course reason that he said that is because you can't feel the forces and car behaviour when you sit in front of your PC (or, God forbid, PS, Xbox, Wii,...) and.... drive. And when you see (seeing is not the same as feel sadly) or hear (if you have "effects" slider set loud enough) that your car start to loose grip... it may already be too late. Usualy it is.
But on the lighter note here's one relaxing video for (all of) you:

Well.... he's insane driving geek. I know how hard it was. I could never drive like this.

Grand Prix Legends the Mothership of Hardcore Simracing...I get all emotional
I remember trying the Demo in summer 1998 ( the eagle at Watkins glen )
I will newer forget that..... with my old Thrustmaster ..now I get emotional again...

 

[Quas]

I've driven some relatively fast karts on outdoor track. I never spun around unexpectedly. Of course if you are rash with your inputs anything can feel snappy and difficult to drive.

Did you see others spin? Did you spin around "expectedly", and if yes, why did you spin if you expected it? I thought you said karts aren't hard to recover.
Maybe you didn't push properly, maybe you're incredibly talented. Hard to judge your driving without you racing real people here on RD.
I've just had one of my car-nut friends on the phone (we're having the same discussion on the phone and in pm's here on RD, except we agree), a guy with several tracktoys that he runs mutiple times a year on several tracks including green hell, building a 700hp Audi S2 and owning the best track prepped Golf i have ever driven, and asked him if he ever spun a kart.
Know what he said? Of course i did.
Got another buddy that doesn't own a car but is big into karting. He was lapping his kart almost a second slower than me and still did spin.
I don't think all three of us are noobs that need tips about their inputs (then again, since we did spin, maybe we do).

I did not imply that. I did not list games that I think are sims. I listed games with that icy spin issue. What I meant was that some people have played those games I listed so much that they have got so used to that kind of unpredictability that for them it feels so easy when you play more realistic sim which doesn't have icy spins. Which is of course very natural feeling if you come from something that is harder than real life to something that is more realistic or thereabouts.

You say you did not imply that, and then you go straight to implying it again. But ok, maybe for some people this is true.
Own fault, why didn't they drive the sims with acclaimed physics in the first place?
What about you, why didn't you buy an LFS account instead of EA games? Or if you did, what do you think of it?
(Edit: Guess i can answer that one myself, LFS wasn't released back in 2000-2001, D'oh!. But it's for 11 years on the market and still going strong, apart from the slow development.)

Most crashes on track happen because of too much speed, wrong driving inputs and lack of proper technique. There are lots of vids on youtube where drivers drive on race track one hand on the wheel for full straightaways with other hand on the shifter. People who have never heard about heel and toe. People who go into turns too fast, brake abruptly and then make sudden steering input but then when they need to counter steer they either freeze or countersteer really really slowly. In sims we don't even need to use h-shifters and clutches.

The only thing those videos prove that it is possible to spin a car. For any spin video there are about 100 videos where the driver doesn't spin. If you want anecdotal evidence that agrees with your opinions there is a youtube video that agrees with you no matter what your opinion is. Just because it is possible fail at something doesn't mean it is difficult.

I don't think you understood how this works:
If you say we don't see topmodels crashing Ferraris, and i post a vid of a topmodel crashing a Ferrari, it can be used as proof that your statement was incorrect.
If i say people are crashing their Ferraris, and you post a vid of a Ferrari not crashing, it proves absolutely nothing.
I never said it's difficult, never asked for reasons behind people spinning or driving tips but thanks i guess.

After reading the rest of your response I think this is correct assumption.

This was referring to your 400.000hp Volvo statement and if it makes you happy i will say it again:
My real life experience differs so much from yours, i truly do not understand.
Even less after your second message, but i'll come to this in a minute.

I never said ac is the most realistic. Again you are putting words in my mouth. I don't think I even mentioned ac...

But you are aware that this is a AC thread and we're talking about realism, no?
To me it seemed like the whole point of your post was that the newer, easier sims are indeed more realistic, since this is a thread about AC, i thought you are referring to AC.
Excuse me if i got that wrong, must be my lack of comprehension again .

We all can have any opinion we want. Just because yours is different doesn't mean someone else is wrong.

Well, if mine differs so much from yours, then indeed your opinion is wrong for me.
Never claimed my opinion would be the universal, undisputable truth though.

It doesn't exactly help your "case" when you misinterpret what I said. I said it is super easy to drift 4000hp volvo around a barn. I never said nobody ever spins in drifting.

When writing this response to your post at times it felt you were replying to someone else. You disagree with me about topics I never I mentioned in my posts!

"People build volvos with 400000 hp and then drift it around their barn just for the kicks... not dying... not even spinning around."
Those are exactly your words. Excuse me for not taking such a laughable statement literally but reading it as "drifting is easy, people don't spin in ridiculously powerful cars".
If that's not what you wanted to say, then what in hell is the point of that statement?
That (exclusively) 4000hp (4.000 or 400.000?) Volvos are super easy to drive & drift???
Did you ever try doing that or what do you base this assumption on? Youtube vids (oh, the irony)?
I think you're severely underestimating all those 4000hp Volvos or slightly overestimating your own abilities.

I played gpl religiously back in the day! Gpl was the first sim that felt natural. It was not random spinfest. Compared to sportscar gt or f1 2000 I spun far less often in gpl. I remember downloading the gpl demo somewhere in the 1999. After one hour of driving I had to get it. It was just so good. Totally above and beyond anything else around that time. For me that game was not just somewhat realistic at the time but also great fun.

Of course gpl has its issues too. But it was a great sim. For some people my experiences with gpl may seem strange. I read that a lot of people who first tried gpl were spinning all the time. But for me it was the opposite. In scgt, gtr, f1 2000 and that sportscar mod. Spin, spin, spin, saved it, nah it spun the other way. In gpl I could take corners in 4 wheel slide!

I have no problems admitting that for me realism is fun. I'm not hardcore in the sense that I enjoy setup changes taking minutes or hours, using virtual hammer to fix the body panel damage or scrubbing tires or breaking in brakes. For me gpl was one of those sims that were just fun to play. Sportscar gt was kinda short time deal but it was my first "sim" so it has some nostalgia value. A lot actually compared to how highly I actually rate it.

But I'm not a realism snob. I have enjoyed my share of gran turismos and more arcadey stuff as well. I probably played gt5 for hundreds of hours. Gt1 and gt2 as well. Of course gt5 is arcadish but there are still fun cars in that game. Honda s2000 with comfort soft tires is very nicely handling car just like the nsx. But of course it is not that realistic when you look at stuff in finer detail.

Well, at least we found something we can agree on .