Are you happy with the latest tire model

[Rupe Wilson]

Do you think the tire model could be better,
After racing online i cant help but think the tire model is lacking in certain aspects,
It has loads of grip then all of a sudden it like it lets go, but the feel i get when it lets go is strange, its so hard to catch it..
by no means am i an expert driver, but i do find other sims a lot easier to control once the cars is sliding,
maybe the other sims have it wrong and this is correct but it just feels odd to me at times.

have you experienced the same or have a different feel

 

[PhilS13]

Don't GT3 teams regularly double and even triple stint the hard compounds? Surely the hard compound in AC is 'faster' than the mediums after a couple hours, right?

They do irl but they need somewhat favorable conditions for it to work well. In the night at Spa for example or a smooth track like Dubai autodrome. From all the footage I've looked at I have not seen a single car attempt double stinting Mugello for example, they might rarely do it... but I've been through the whole 12hrs and not seen a single pitstop without tyre change.

In AC
Mediums die abruptly 1h25 minutes in(they outlast a full fuel tank)
Hards die abruptly 1h40 minutes in

Everyone might have their own one-time situation where they think the hards did or might have worked but really I'm not just throwing random thoughts...I have spent enough time on it and know enough what I'm doing behind the wheel to confidently say they are not usable right now.

 

[Fernando Deutsch]

For my race, while most drivers went to a M/M strategy switch at mid-race, I did a H/S switch at 3/4 race time. At some time my laps where faster than some M drivers, particularly at the end of their stint of course. Also, by extending my window, was able to run on a clean track, which allowed me to put very consistent laps.

When I pitted out with the S I was like 3 seconds behind the first 5 cars on mediums, boy those last laps were a joy

At least for me the hard compound has worked, probably a matter of know how to strategically use it.

 

[Jim Liak]

I tried a OSW 3 nights ago.
How is this related to this thread?
The DD wheel made me appreciate AC even more but not only that.
Machine had also rf2 and AMS so made the comparison.
A DD wheel shows things that were completely unknown to me.
Those 3 sims were superb , so cloce so really close , i couldn't believe it.
In my G27 i always tend to like more the FFB of AMS and rf2 as more detailed and "chatty".
But with the OSW i got all the info i wanted so my brain was simply concentrated to the feeling of driving.
With the DD i was driving , not playing.
And the sim that made me had the illusion best that i was indeed driving, was the sim that giving better feeling from tyres.

And that was Assetto Corsa. I had to fight with somewhat excessive SAT but the feeling that under me was rubber , was better and more pronounced.

I am sure that physics are not a simple thing. It's tyres, suspension model, FFB etc combined .
And KUNOS managed to become another studio that offers a game (like lfs, ams, rf2) with this rare thing : making the human to be persuaded that drives a car while sitting in a chair in his house.

So , yes i am really happy.

 

[Mike Kadlcak]

as i said it's not my opinion it's a pretty well stablished opinion within the simracing comunity, it's not just me that has this opinion. understood?

No dude its just you. All the guys who just enjoy this sim should speak up and tell u what we think. Just go and get a new hobby or whatever but u r not the community. Bye.

 

[Albert McSaltens]

No dude its just you. All the guys who just enjoy this sim should speak up and tell u what we think. Just go and get a new hobby or whatever but u r not the community. Bye.

not dude it's not just me, i'm not the comunity, neither you.

 

[Rupe Wilson]

Stop the bickering now.. your acting like little children.
And that means all of you, if you cant control what you type find another site..

 

[Stig Bidstrup]

I feel this tyre model is much better than the previous ( 7 I mean it was ) I can now feel when the slide begins to show its presence, But some of the car models are better at this than others ,here I think the new Porsche cars are very good at this Both the New and Classic models..
There is a parameter that seems to be overlooked when talking Grip in AC--Track Grip-that can be adjusted from Dusted to High grip = 100 % if simmers always have this at 100--then of course when the car finally lose grip it will be very abruptly ( with slicks ) offline the grip can get down to 85 % I mean --On a server there is no limit downwards as I remember --but I haven't seen many servers under 98 %

 

[Markus1605]

To make it short...No!
For example, what happends when the tires are hot and how fast they get hot.

 

[Kade]

What's Kunos' point of view for brake temperatures affecting tyre core temperatures?

I am no expert in thermodynamics or tyre dynamics in that matter but there seems to be a trend that affects all the cars in game that have variety of compounds to choose from (from soft to hard). I agree with Phils13 and the trend seems to be that either soft compound is the right (fastest) strategy (tracks like monza where tyre temps tends to be lower) or it's not usable at all. It's same for hard tyres that seem to be very, very rarely used (I don't remember seeing top guys using them ever). Hard tyres tend to stay on the colder side instead. It's almost like there was missing a "normalizing" factor which brings us back to the brake heat <=> tyre core temp correlation.

Guys like Pat Symonds (ex Williams F1 Chief technical officer) have said in a discussion about brake temperatures that brake temperatures aren't really an issue now-a-days and it's more about how well you get the heat directed to the tyres' core to get them into optimal working core-temperature. Heat from brakes in general seems to be remarkable source of tyre core temperature, especially in racing. If we added an additional heat source to the Assetto Corsa and adjusted heat generation from energy from tyre <=> road interaction accordingly, we would indeed see more normalized temperatures across the compounds because the brake heat stays as a heat source pretty much the same regardless of the compounds used.

Yesterday in Monaco qualifying Hamilton had tyre temperature issues where the core of the tyre stayed too cold (under the optimal core-temperature) while rear tyres surface temperature was overheating. To be honest I haven't seen this kind of interaction in Assetto Corsa because core and surface temperature tend to be closely linked together (surface temp conducting to core with delay). The reason for this problem probably was the lack of brake heat, especially on the rear where a good part of the torque is transferred into batteries instead of heat. The surface temperature was too high because the slow track and huge torque-demand translates into more rear slip in acceleration.

 

[PhilS13]

Guys like Pat Symonds (ex Williams F1 Chief technical officer) have said in a discussion about brake temperatures that brake temperatures aren't really an issue now-a-days and it's more about how well you get the heat directed to the tyres' core to get them into optimal working core-temperature. Heat from brakes in general seems to be remarkable source of tyre core temperature, especially in racing.

Very true and before anyone asks it's not limited to F1. A GT3 race engineer told me tyre temps are strongly linked to the braking energy dissipated at each axle. This has an equalizing effect on left to right temps, an area where AC might struggle a bit imo. It also brings into play an extra tool for them to manage temps. It is very easy to control the amount of brake heat your want to end up into the rim via radiation and they do use this tool in GT racing, using different rim coatings for example.

So while core temps are mostly managed via the brake heat, surface temps are linked to atmospheric conditions, track layout and are managed via pressures and driving style.

When a driver "manages" tyres in real life, he is imo in fact only controlling surface temps which climb very quickly at high slippage and suffer instant thermal degradation. When he gets to a corner after abusing the tyres in the previous one, the surface has cooled off and almost all grip has been recovered but a tiny bit of thermal degradation has already happened and is nearly irreversible. One time is not dramatic but if you keep doing that good luck keeping the pace at the end of the stint.

 

[Matheus Machado]

Very true and before anyone asks it's not limited to F1. A GT3 race engineer told me tyre temps are strongly linked to the braking energy dissipated at each axle. This has an equalizing effect on left to right temps, an area where AC might struggle a bit imo. It also brings into play an extra tool for them to manage temps. It is very easy to control the amount of brake heat your want to end up into the rim via radiation and they do use this tool in GT racing, using different rim coatings for example.

So while core temps are mostly managed via the brake heat, surface temps are linked to atmospheric conditions, track layout and are managed via pressures and driving style.

When a driver "manages" tyres in real life, he is imo in fact only controlling surface temps which climb very quickly at high slippage and suffer instant thermal degradation. When he gets to a corner after abusing the tyres in the previous one, the surface has cooled off and almost all grip has been recovered but a tiny bit of thermal degradation has already happened and is nearly irreversible. One time is not dramatic but if you keep doing that good luck keeping the pace at the end of the stint.

Wouldn't air be a determinant factor in transferring brake heat to the tires as well? It should be the primary path of heat transfer since it is the only thing that has direct contact with the rim, therefore the tire.
I don't know how this can be simulated accurately, since afaik no sim has a fluid-mechanical heat transfer system modeled. It would be indeed interesting to see the developers take on that aspect, as they are more experienced to make decent workarounds while still keeping a good fidelity to the original process.

Also, when a tire degrades performance without overheating, is it mainly because of the thermodynamical process of degradation (rubber gets harder), or simple wear of the tire contact surface (reducing abrasion, directly affecting the friction coefficient)?

 

[PhilS13]

Wouldn't air be a determinant factor in transferring brake heat to the tires as well? It should be the primary path of heat transfer since it is the only thing that has direct contact with the rim, therefore the tire.
I don't know how this can be simulated accurately, since afaik no sim has a fluid-mechanical heat transfer system modeled. It would be indeed interesting to see the developers take on that aspect, as they are more experienced to make decent workarounds while still keeping a good fidelity to the original process.

Also, when a tire degrades performance without overheating, is it mainly because of the thermodynamical process of degradation (rubber gets harder), or simple wear of the tire contact surface (reducing abrasion, directly affecting the friction coefficient)?

Air is important but I'm not sure they are using that part to control tyre temps. The first priority is still to get the brakes at proper temperature and for that you tune the airflow going through them. You are forced to live with that x amount of heat going to the rim through convection and THEN you can tune the radiation part, without affecting brake temps. At least that's what I understood from the race engineer.

I'm quite convinced this can't be modeled accurately but the main point is it is easier for them to control core temps than for us. I don't want to start playing with rim coatings in a simulator...that's just non-sense. But I would like more stable, more "in the range" core temps no matter the conditions, because I do think that's something they easily get in real life.

Same GT3 guy told me thermal deg is indeed a bigger factor for grip loss over a stint than mechanical wear. I think we have seen in the past racing tyres that do not suffer from thermal degradation and show very little grip loss up to the no-more-thread point. Doesn't look to be the case for the GT3 tyres at the moment. You say without overheating but I don't think that's even possible for them. Before you get to a corner exit, even at easy pace, the surface temps WILL rise significantly and will go into the thermal degradation temperatures. It's up to the driver to manage how deep into them he wants to go.

 

[VFX Pro]

Do you think the tire model could be better,
After racing online i cant help but think the tire model is lacking in certain aspects,
It has loads of grip then all of a sudden it like it lets go, but the feel i get when it lets go is strange, its so hard to catch it..
by no means am i an expert driver, but i do find other sims a lot easier to control once the cars is sliding,
maybe the other sims have it wrong and this is correct but it just feels odd to me at times.

have you experienced the same or have a different feel

This statement is insane... AC has the best "gradient" feel of all sims in terms of tires and knowing exactly when you are about to "lose" it..

 

[Trezoitao38]

Not, in my opinion is easier now than ever.

 

[tlsmikey]

Tire Model 7 was garbage IMO. You could basically just lift throttle mid corner and rotate the car at will. Required very little skill and the GT3 cars were basically impossible to spin even when you mashed throttle mid apex.

Tire Model 10 is fantastic. I do prefer the edge grip sensation a bit more in R3E, but overall they are both very good and I really like AC. I do think that AC like most sims requires a bit of time to get your personal setup, but it is certainly good once you get it dialed in.

 

[Mr Deap]

It is fairly realistic overall, if you drive within the window & the car dynamic. Once you go over it, it feel kind of too much forgiving.

 

[Bobby Pennington]

@Rupe Wilson I'm with you. I've driven and been a passanger in a Nascar.......grip for days in that heavy pig. Reminds me of a go kart. I've driven muscle cars (don't turn) and Porsches on the street with a little bit of the Red Mist. The cars are catchable in the dry without too much of a problem. In the rain it's very tricky hence I take it pretty easy. AC, at times, feels like it's catching a car in the rain while in certain cars (not including cars with downforce as that's an entirely different kettle of fish) are somewhat more predictable and easier to catch. Before anybody says anything, yes I do take into consideration the difference between front, mid and rear engine cars and only compare them ie front engine to front engine etc etc. I am no expert, no engineer and I consider myself to be a huge AC fan and supporter.

Sincerely,
A Yank throwing his 2 cents in that's worth even less

 

[garyjpaterson]

Consider this though. In real life if you take air out of a tire it will run higher temps while in AC it has been the complete opposite.

Its not though, is it?

Quick comparison, both 1 outlap, 1 flying lap, no tyre warmers.

Max pressure:

Min Pressure:

As you can see, the max pressure are much cooler than the min pressures, as you say happens in real life.

Interestingly, I've never actually done a back-to-back test of max/min pressures before. I was surprised at how different they feel, despite giving similar laptimes (both very sub-optimal though, about 3s off the pace).

 

[Bobby Pennington]

Its not though, is it?

Quick comparison, both 1 outlap, 1 flying lap, no tyre warmers.

Max pressure:

Min Pressure:

As you can see, the max pressure are much cooler than the min pressures, as you say happens in real life.

Interestingly, I've never actually done a back-to-back test of max/min pressures before. I was surprised at how different they feel, despite giving similar laptimes (both very sub-optimal though, about 3s off the pace).

I stand corrected. Before the latest update it was the case. I noticed last night running that my front left was getting hot, but then it was time to go to bed. When I saw Rupes post I was basing the psi issue off of my old data. After your post today, I went out and verified that you are correct my man
I did check the update info and it mentions nothing about this change, but I'm glad I can go back to a normal thought process

 

[garyjpaterson]

Before the latest update it was the case.

I did check the update info and it mentions nothing about this change

That's because its been this way from some time now, its not been an overnight change.