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Discussion in 'Assetto Corsa' started by Austin Ogonoski, Feb 10, 2016.
Comtinued from last thread.
Babbys first alcohol, apologies
Its a 404 page
Edit: The first post You replied the same time i was
yeah link is dead.
Link is same as uploaded photo in 2nd post.
Without some hard numbers this still doesn't prove much of anything. Yes the suspension components could be very different to be lighter and stronger but they may still attach to the car in the exact location and retain the same overall dimensions as the previous car. One example I can think of is from 1970-1977 the front suspension was unchanged on the Pontiac Firebird. In 1978 they changed the control arm bushing size as well as the spindles to allow for larger outer wheel bearings. This was a fairly significant change but guess what, you can bolt a 1978+ front suspension right onto a 1970-1977 car.
I personally don't care if the car was copied properly or not. But unless I see some actual numbers data or pictures of the actual REAL suspension components with measurements it is all just he said, she said BS. Saying something "significantly changed" could be marketing BS or could actually mean something significant. You just do not know.
In the end people will complain just for the fact that they can.
well pretty much what we knew ... lots of changes, different mounting points, wishbones, springs, etc .. I think even devs said they didn`t have all data from manufacturer, didn`t they?
Question is would those changes results to significantly different data ?
Apparently (ingame) changes to different parts of suspension could have desired effects on other parts of suspension so it might be not necesary to change some values and still change behavior in a way you need .. I don`t think it is this case but point is we don`t know
http://i.imgur.com/5aMfbxZ (your image doesn't pop up, but there's the link).
To what Mark said, where did you see the suspensions from AC's 650s gt3 are wrong? You only showed us a small part of it, that most of the wishbone attach points are on the same place. What about the actual suspension performance? The bumbstop, damper, spring, heave.
And the basey (Distance of center of gravity from the center of the wheel in meters), track width, and rod length are different, as you showed us in your article.
When Mark said: "(...) where we introduced new components (including wishbones, uprights, and hubs)." It doesn't mean mp4-12c gt3 didn't have them and it does in no way say the attach points in a 3d map in a software can't be the same. If he wants to say that by new components, they behave better than the older car, Austin, you only showed us the attach points being the same, that doesn't show us whether or not the suspension performance is different between the two cars. So your comparison was incomplete.
But now out of sudden you believe what marketing guys say? (not wanting to disrespect Mark here)
Mark Wootton: https://uk.linkedin.com/in/mark-wootton-1b646613 (this is a public linkedin profile, no need to login to access it, so I'm not giving private information here).
"Joined McLaren GT from McLaren London to head up their global track/race car sales and to develop and engage the retail network with GT products, especially the exciting new 650S Sprint Car."
"Experienced in all aspects of sales management and marketing along with business development which has been predominantly gained within the High Luxury Sector of the automotive industry with brands like Lamborghini, Ferrari, Aston Martin and Bentley."
So it shows he isn't a car engineer nor a software car dynamics simulation engineer. In his email he redirected you to mclaren's website. And he didn't actually say anything in AC's 650s GT3 is wrong or correct.
Austin, you are interpreting marketing phrases about the 650s gt3 on your own, and from that you're concluding the car in AC is incorrect. This is very legit from you.
new wishbones : doesn't mean attachment point locations have changed
new uprights : doesn't mean attachment point locations have changed
new hubs : doesn't mean attachment point locations have changed
The dude in his response didn't even mention the change that has the biggest impact on the car which is the track width change....Yeah he reaaaaaally cares about giving you ALL the technical details about the new car.
That your proof ? Seriously ? You are one special kind of person man...
Prominent AC modders help PRC analyze car physics files to prove KS have been copy-pasting physics.
Guy from McLaren tells us an aspect of the 650s we analyzed for the article is indeed different than the 12c in real life.
Kunos admits they copy-pasted physics, proving us to be correct.
Yet fanboys still show up saying the McLaren guy doesn't know what he's talking about, the physics are supposed to be the same, and we misinterpreted everything.
Shades of pCars.
Here is the thing... You didn't bring any data to the table. I'm not saying who is right or wrong (well, I do think that kunos copy-pasted the existing data, because some of it was missing), but you have to have data to prove someone wrong.
Also, when did they admit it? (I might have missed it, unless you are referring to the Aris' post... in that case: Good morning, they "admitted" that when the game was in beta stages)
And there is another thing... Not you, me or anyone else here (I think) can say how 650S GT3 should/does feel in real life. You don't know it and you cannot say if it is right or wrong. And you drive it because of the feel don't you? You want to know how it feels to drive such car... What I would expect of it is a bit faster MP4-12C GT3. I mean it shares the chassis and the engine with the 12C and most of the time, the biggest difference between the old cars and the new "updated" cars is in running costs with the new cars being more reliable...
I really don't get the backlash that this has created. These "modders" have shown 4 copied values and that is it. Do you realize that there is much more than that to creating a car? Let's not forget that this was done illegally. A scumbag way to do it without contacting Kunos dev team for explanation. All of this could have stayed away and be dealt with in a much more mature manor... It simply didn't need to be blown up.
Anyway, that's just my opinion
P.S. The dude who posted the article also said that kunos saying that their console version is in pre-alpha basically means that their PC version is in pre-alpha, because the versions should be the same in terms of gameplay... What kind of a toxic person would say that?
It's stuff like that that really kills any shred of credibility.
But now I'm wondering: how much does the real 650S differ to the MP4-12C, and is the McLaren marketing guy not just marketing their shiny "new" car?
Of course the marketing guy doesn't know what he is talking about in terms of precise suspension data, as he has nothing to do with technical stuff, and thereby he's not an engineer. He basically repeated the website info. So as long as we don't have numbers, we don't know and we can only assume Kunos knows more than us.
Then, Aris stated he indeed copies physics to change them according to the car. Perfectly understandable, as it makes no sense to rewrite all the data for the Lotus Exige cabrio, when the coupe data is there. It makes no sense to start from scratch on a car that is a evolution of its predecessor. Instead you make the changes the real car got too.
I'm actually wondering whether you are trying to prove Kunos copy-pastes physics data, or whether the AC 650S is incorrect in comparison to it's real counterpart.
You are making a mountain out of a molehill Austin, and that molehill might not even be there. We don't know.
if you consider whole car, not just suspension, difference should be noticable .. just bigger front wheel and wider wheel base do a lot .. add more effective aero, different gearbox, different springs, more HP, less weight (which I believe is (or was) the same for 12C and 650s in AC) .. drivers and racers who tested it reported improvement ... but who really knows ...
This horse appears to be dead sir, your flogging will not achieve the desired outcome.
what exactly is desired outcome ?
Agreed with your post, and here is a psychological aspect I'm going to copy-paste quote from wikipedia.
"People hear what they want to hear and see what they expect to see. If planners want something to happen they see it as likely to happen. If they hope something will not happen, they see it as unlikely to happen. Thus smokers think that they personally will avoid cancer. Promiscuous people practice unsafe sex. Teenagers drive recklessly."
So far he hasn't showed proof of copy pasting, only showed that some parts have the same numbers between both cars. And he hasn't explained/demonstrated why those numbers on the new car can't be there.
His basis for stating that copy pasting happened is for seeing identical numbers and reading marketing information about the car, from mclaren's press reveal about the new car. This information he showed us about the 650s gt3 is vague in terms of technical meaning. Because for e.g. new or revised suspension components don't indicate if they can't use the same attach points to the car. It doesn't indicate the suspension components performance, so we can't compare such vague info between mp4-12c and 650s as proof of anything, even not as a strong possibility. There's no ground here.
I watched this skit the other day (great movie BTW) and it reminded me of this anachronous discussion.
To be fair, none of the GT3 cars (or almost) make their speed properly. A bit like how it was on iRacing a year ago or so. The Mclaren should be faster on the straights, it isn't. The BMW should be slow as hell, it isn't, etc.
To be fair, BoP and different tires mess up the cars so bad IRL that they are very different in almost every race so it´s kind of pointless to compare them to their simulated counterparts, that is until Blancpain, FIA, IMSA or ACO start co-developing these kind of games....