Realism?

[Doug62]

Many people are asking for more realism from rF2. This can be a range of things so lets define it down.

Damage? This is basically a graphics thing. The better the graphics the better the damage model can be.

Drive-ability? The cars physics. Well the simplest way to put this is "It's all in the way it's written". True rF currently has limitations but not as many as is being placed on it now.A few examples are 1) Camber. Camber lays the wheels over for the purpose of bettering corner grip. As the tyre loads up it rolls over placing more rubber on the road. If the camber is set to (0) the wheel is standing straight upright. Hard cornering will push on the tyre and possibly roll it off the rim. Correct? So race cars change the camber by pulling the top in or pushing the bottom out. What ever the case may be. Up to 6, 6.5 degrees. By doing this the tyres standing surface eerier on the road is reduced. Correct? Well currently in most mods that I know of that are using ISI's default setting for this are in fact loosing only 18% of straight line braking grip at 6 degree camber. At this degree of camber the tyre surface still on the road is in fact much less then 82% This can be made to work in the current rF physics.

Tyre latitude and longitude grip. Currently the patch of tyre that defines this is equal so rF sees no difference between the two. Not really. Not to the extent it should. Again this is in the current physics and can be change so rF sees these as two different components. By do this lockups can be made to penalise you with massive grip loss. This is currently not the case.We all know if you lock up tyres on your own car it want stop. Thus the in vent of ABS. rF is quite capable of these and many other things that define realism. Suspension made true to a real car. Diff Lock. Diff Lock is in a mod at the moment. But this one isn't right. Well let's say it works but not were a locked diff would really came into play. Cornering. A true locked diff is 100% locked as it is with V8Supercars. Currently for this mod is set at 20000.0,. This defines only 20%. On corner exit this is well under the needed percentage to maintain a locked diff so it become a slip diff allowing the car to corner easier then a locked diff would. This can go on and on but as for rF2 being any better then what is already possible remains to be seen. Physics are up to the person doing them. Nothing more.



Graphics? With this we're currently using DX9 maximum. Some cards today as mine is are capable of DX10. Many older mods were purpose built to run in DX7 to DX9. So to do this some compromises had to be made. Today some are concentrating on DX9 only much to the disgust of some users that are less able to upgrade to DX9 graphics cards. Going to DX10 would, I would expect allow higher resolution textures and perhaps more textures in a defined eerier for tracks and allow models to increase their poly count thus making them smoother remembering that this may make DX7 & DX8 obsolete.

Sounds? Well this is one eerier that no matter how good the platform is it will not help here. The sounds we have today are made by the mod groups not ISI. To make good sounds first you need the rouge material. In the case of many real world racing car mods it is vertically impossible to get. Track side recording are no use as you need around 5 seconds of constant sound at any one rev limit for each rev range through the sounds files. TV recording are again useless. These sound are not true to the sound of the cars because it's filtered and set to a defined volume.

Ok. Now define realism?

 

[Ryan Callan]

Nice write up Doug! On the subject of the DX debate - I think it is only right that mod teams purely focus on DX9 - afte all how long has DX9 been out? You can get a DX9 card for £30 - baffles and annoys me when guys complain about this.

 

[Doug62]

Yeah. Beats me to. Like you said there not that expensive. Heck I have a Nvidia 7200 which is sitting in a box doing nothing! Works fine I just wanted a Bigger one! the 7200 runs DX9 just fine.

 

[David Wright]

Ok. Now define realism?

I agree with your basic point that the realism of mods is more down to the mod team than the physics engine.

I think ISI have confirmed that rF2 will still be DX9. There are a lot of improvements you can make still using DX9 - you just have to look at recent titles.

Other aspects of realism we will see in rF2 are

1) variable weather. In the real world some races are held in the wet and in others it starts to rain after the race has started. Simulating variable weather is a big step forward in realism IMO.

2) variable track conditions. In the real world, the racing line rubbers in, off line marbles build up and at the start of the race you have a clean and dirty side of the grid. Simulating this is another big step forward in realism IMO.

3) Dazzling sun. In the real world when the sun is low it affects your sight a lot. This isn't an issue in most races but where it does it will improve realism.

4) Graphics do contribute to realism - not just the car graphics and the track graphics but things like animated pitcrew.

Other aspects of realism we might see in rF2 are

5) the ability to flat-spot your tyres

6) the ability to puncture your tyres on debris

7) surround sound

8) more sophisticated gearchange simulation

Other aspects of realism we probably won't see in rF2 are

9) high accuracy track bumps. iRacing need a clear "edge" to justify their premium price, and laser scanned tracks is one of these features. I see no indication that the real tracks supplied with rF2 will be laser scanned nor do I see modders being able to repeat Piddy's pioneering work in this area.

 

[David Garcia]

I had a couple of ideas that would take the game a step forward in what comes to race realism:

1.- AFTER THE CRASH - In the case a player press esc and abandons the game after a crash or an engine failure. That woud be great if the game could take control of the accident letting the stopped car/s remain at the place the accident happened, with the game authomaticly deplyoing a crane, marshalls whatever in an attemp of emulating what happens in a real race after a crash, or a stopped car near the track. That would be great add to the sim, specially to leagues where there is a person taking car of the Safety Car (STC style). It should have the option to set it on or off.

2.- PIT CREW - Normally at a real race it is not the driver of the car who makes the changes on the car, he can decide what he need, but he never does the work as there will be always a pit crew ready to do it. The idea is, as now we have the option of enter the server as driver or spectator, leeting a player join a server as PIT CREW for one or more drivers to make the needed changes on his driver/s car. To grant security, drivers should be able to set a password to let his PIT CREW act on his car pit stop settings, and the PIT CREW should type it in order to join this driver as pit crew. There should be aswell to set it on or off.

 

[Ryan Callan]

The after crash philosophy would also need a working and intelligent safety car of course

Nice idea though.

 

[Doug62]

1.- AFTER THE CRASH - In the case a player press esc and abandons the game after a crash or an engine failure. That woud be great if the game could take control of the accident letting the stopped car/s remain at the place the accident happened, with the game authomaticly deplyoing a crane, marshalls whatever in an attemp of emulating what happens in a real race after a crash, or a stopped car near the track. That would be great add to the sim, specially to leagues where there is a person taking car of the Safety Car (STC style). It should have the option to set it on or off.

This is one point that would justify a yellow flag. In addition to this, If it was possible to have a recovery team to help cars out of things like sand traps in most cases the driver could continue in the race because the car really has little or no damage. At this stage the driver needs to try and get the car free his or her self. Usually resulting in over heated engines and/or tyres. Which is were the damage is done. Also today with most mods the pan points in the HDV file are set high. The reason for this is so it's easier to get the car out of situations like this. The down side to this is with the pan points being high the car isn't able to simulate reaction from ripple strips (Curbing) in the same way you would expect it to. This makes it easier to cut corner with out upsetting the car to much.

2.- PIT CREW - Normally at a real race it is not the driver of the car who makes the changes on the car, he can decide what he need, but he never does the work as there will be always a pit crew ready to do it. The idea is, as now we have the option of enter the server as driver or spectator, letting a player join a server as PIT CREW for one or more drivers to make the needed changes on his driver/s car. To grant security, drivers should be able to set a password to let his PIT CREW act on his car pit stop settings, and the PIT CREW should type it in order to join this driver as pit crew. There should be aswell to set it on or off.

So in this case the driver would communicate to his pit crew using voice commands. Like say Team Speak? Team Speak is widely use among the communities leagues. Perhaps a step in the right direction is for a built in team speak for rF2 in addition to the text bars. I for one can't drive and use the text bar at the same time. I'm sure I'm not alone here. Down side is people that find it necessary to abuse others. This is monitored and kept under control by leagues. open servers would be a nightmare. It would need to have a blocking feature for such occasions. Click on drivers name. Click Block. Silence. No more abuse from that tool! hahaha...

Nice. Good ideas guy's.

 

[Dave Stephenson]

Damage? This is basically a graphics thing. The better the graphics the better the damage model can be.

I don't really get this. I don't see what graphics has to do with damage model. the effect on the feeling and handling on the car is all that matters here. Who cares what it looks like. Eye candy is overated.

As for DX7/8. They are already obselete. time to go in the bin. I think them remaining there is nothing more than showing the age of the engine. DX9 has been the working minimum for almost everything for years.

 

[Doug62]

I think ISI have confirmed that rF2 will still be DX9. There are a lot of improvements you can make still using DX9 - you just have to look at recent titles.

Yes. totally agree. We must remember, rFactor is now What? 5 years old? The selling point for rF when first released was the fact that you didn't need a high end PC to run it. 5 years ago DX9 was a high end PC with a price tag to match. Now 5 years on it's a very different story off cause. Back then ISI would have had to compromise DX9 to allow DX7 to operate.

1) variable weather. Yes this is on the cards for rF2. At this time tracks have the ability to have different grip levels built in to them. Thus we have some tracks now were you can choose between wet or dry. The one thing it want do now is change this during a race. The down side is the cars we have today with physics. Many will either show no difference to wet tracks or will become un-drivable.

2) variable track conditions. I would suggested this would be achieved in much the same way as changing weather conditions. Grip levels built in to tracks that will change through the duration of the race. Some are mentioned like rubber laid down, Clean and dirt lines. There is one other that comes into play here. There is also track temperature changes through the core of the day. This alone can change lap times quite dramatically. Again only a small amount of mods will be able to work as you would expect a car to behave.

3) Dazzling sun. Realistic or not. This maybe this is pushing things a bit. In reality you can pick a eerier to look out side the car were your not getting the full force of the sun. Plus other things like visors that have flash point darkening. Much like a welding mask or light sensitive classes. Not something a sim racer would have.

4) Animated pitcrew. A very strong possibility. Other PC formats have this now so I see no reason for rF2 not to. Also with this paint able pit crews so they match the teams colours. That would be good.

5) the ability to flat-spot your tyres. This is one thing that is not possible for the current rF. Though there has been much improvement on tyre lockups were grip is lost to the point were the car want stop until the brakes are released then reapplied releasing the locked wheel a flat spot is very different so I would have to agree with you there. We want see this is rF2.

6) the ability to puncture your tyres on debris. Are you sure this isn't currently in rF? Most have the debris removed quite quickly so it doesn't puncture tyres for the sake of the race. But I'm sure this is working now.

7) surround sound. A strong possibility. rF is around 5 years old and there has been many advances in this over this time so I wouldn't discount it so quickly.

8) more sophisticated gearchange simulation. You'll need to be more specific on want you mean. As I see it you thinking of the controller no the game itself?

 

[David Wright]

8) more sophisticated gearchange simulation. You'll need to be more specific on want you mean. As I see it you thinking of the controller no the game itself?

At the moment you can change gear without using the clutch or rev matching. With modern F1 cars this of course doesn't matter but to simulate the full range of cars it would increase realism for those who want it. NetKar Pro has this feature, LFS had this feature added as has iRacing very recently. Forza 3 has it too I believe.

 

[Doug62]

I don't really get this. I don't see what graphics has to do with damage model. the effect on the feeling and handling on the car is all that matters here. Who cares what it looks like. Eye candy is overated.

As I see this question ask my understanding is the visual side of things. So yes the answer is correct.

Damage as in feel is already possible to simulate quite well in rF. The choice to keep this at a low is for the sake of the racing not a limitation of rF. This can be set to simulate many things but it would end races for many drivers reducing the fun factor. After all it's supposed to be fun. At the end of the day one mod has to suit all users not just a select few. With this in mind mod teams are working towards keeping their mod as realistic as possible without making it so beginners get frustrated and believe it's to hard. A fine line between sim and arcade.

 

[Doug62]

At the moment you can change gear without using the clutch or rev matching. With modern F1 cars this of course doesn't matter but to simulate the full range of cars it would increase realism for those who want it. NetKar Pro has this feature, LFS had this feature added as has iRacing very recently. Forza 3 has it too I believe.

This is true but you can also set up your controller to use the clutch if you have one available. I have two mates that already use manual gear changing with the clutch. It's basically a driving technique. I used to drive a truck with a 13 speed roadranger gear box. Rarely used the clutch on that once it was moving. There was no rev blipping needed. Just timing. haha.