PC1 Pcars: A community divided

[Nathan Robinson]

Continuation of Part 1: http://www.racedepartment.com/forum/threads/banned-for-no-reason.47384/

Its hard to believe a game has taken a community over like this. Now with legal proceedings, its kind of become a joke for simmers. I have been at this a while now and have never seen a game invoke so much negative and positive reaction. May the discussions continue


Ps. While i continue to support pcars, i respect RD for allowing the freedom of expression to all its members.

 

[Ian Bell]

It doesn't mean it's the right thing. But I'll bite. There're mistakes on the attitude on those PMs from both sides pretty much from the beginning.

Way too eager to threaten when things don't go in one way in one hand; way too stubborn to change something that would have never been a big deal in the first place in the other hand.

There was no need to mention lawyers or threats. In the other hand, would seriously RD stand up in arms rioting because a thread was deleted?

Seriously, what's the point of all this? Where are you trying to get to? Both of you.

I agree Alejandro, apart from one point. There SHOULD be no need to mention lawyers or legal threats but when some simple requests that make sense are shot down, as you can read in the PM's there's little other recourse available.

 

[Klazerman]

Yes, we just could say "we will delete everything you want and disrespect our members"

If you ask me to kill a person after you threatened me on public, if I don't do it, is not that I don't want to listen, is that I find it unnaceptable.

I don't have any hard feelings with Ian, but he asks me to do something immoral, and I refuse to do it.

A bit melodromatic comparision but ok..

Is what Ian ask for immoral when the original poster admitted that he knew what he did was wrong as he clearly stated in post #27 of the Banned for no reason thread .. that would mean that he actually knows why he was removed and the thread title is wrong!

edit: grammatic stuff .. what do I know. I can't write

 

[Ian Bell]

I would resign as admin and left the community before deleting a thread (censoring) by request of a big company without an objective reason to do it.

Yes, its a big deal for me because I live by some principles that maybe aren't important in general, but are important to me.

I've never asked for that. The PM's are there for all to see. You can state unrelated platitudes but it doesn't change the fact that I kindly asked for discussion and simple moderation of those posts that breech your own posting policies. You and Bram refused to enter into discussion.

I'm still awaiting any of your phone numbers for a chat.

 

[Kazumi]

This seems to be the case given the feedback from the hardcore which we're listening to. I wouldn't be spending money recoding it otherwise.

As I said the community can't judge the code. A question that arose from some people, why didn't you guys build just 1 or 2 cars and tweak them to perfection instead of creating placeholders which only expose existing problems in some of the assets or parameters? People drive these placeholders and complain or "hate" as you like to put it. You guys build crap cars and people blame gravity, tires or think you want to create something like Mario Kart. People blame 'physics' when they actually just mean cars that handle rubbish. Such cars do exist in real life as well.

 

[Ian Bell]

Conciliation means legal threats and censoring imposition.

I have to write down that for the future.

This thread went full retard if you ask me, its ridiculous.

Sorry Xose, but I did ask for this, even openly on the forum BEFORE I had to resort to threats.

Have you read your own PM thread? Please re-read and tell me who is showing animosity.

The thread went full retard about 3 months ago. You just refused to moderate it.

 

[Kazumi]

Nice to hear Ian, but seriously, he just couldn't get the same results he had with the RBR engine could he? There is no way on this planet that Pcars physics resemble anything of the greatness that RBR had. I wish it did.

In the engine used in S1 & S2U he added some assets but otherwise everything looked like ISI assets and the PhysX middleware for collisions. According to Doug at the time around S1 release they did that because of lack of time.

I don't know about pCars but I don't see anyone ever mentioned there has been a change on that.

 

[Klazerman]

This is the phrase of post #27 I was reffering to

"I did not realise however that the forum was also used for very serious WORK and proper bug reporting, I thought it was just a portal. Had I known this I might have been a little less daft. For that I would apologise could I have had a right to reply!"

That information was clear to every member right from the start and something that is clearly stated by wmd. Anyway, that statement shows he actually knows it was HIS fault and he would like to appologise. Hence.. first tirade and thread not true.

 

[Mapu]

Let this thread die already, I have enough of this... RD wasn't starting threaten others. It's what you wanted, so you got it.

 

[Ian Bell]

In the engine used in S1 & S2U he added some assets but otherwise everything looked like ISI assets and the PhysX middleware for collisions. According to Doug at the time around S1 release they did that because of lack of time.

I don't know about pCars but I don't see anyone ever mentioned there has been a change on that.

The Shift games used Eero's tyre model and our engine but with ISI AI and non tyre model physics code. This is what we've been replacing since for pCARS. We think the only weakness in Eero's work was the tyre model as it was static and we're reworking that with AJ.

 

[Xosé Estrada]

I've never asked for that. The PM's are there for all to see. You can state unrelated platitudes but it doesn't change the fact that I kindly asked for discussion and simple moderation of those posts that breech your own posting policies. You and Bram refused to enter into discussion.

I'm still awaiting any of your phone numbers for a chat.

Simple moderation in "one of your sites" style, which I won't do, as I'm repeating now for 1000 time.

The threads are moderated now following RD standards of free speech. Or you come with facts, or claims like "its a lie", or "that user is a troll" won't work.

About the chat thing... first you threaten individuals with legal actions from a big company, and then you want to have a friendly chat by phone? I'm not that hypocritical, I can't do that, sorry, I talk from equal to equal, not under coercion.

 

[Bram Hengeveld]

You just refused to moderate it.

We will not change the title of this banned for no reason thread indeed.

You can threat, send Micas to scare all our members via PM but it will not be changed, simple as that. We will not moderate opinions of our members just because you don't like it or fail to supply evidence.

Even after four days that is still not clear? Opinions will not be moderated until its proven that they are false claims.

About the chat thing... first you threaten individuals with legal actions from a big company, and then you want to have a friendly chat by phone?

 

[Xosé Estrada]

Sorry Xose, but I did ask for this, even openly on the forum BEFORE I had to resort to threats.

Have you read your own PM thread? Please re-read and tell me who is showing animosity.

The thread went full retard about 3 months ago. You just refused to moderate it.

That PM thread starts with you willing to call a person you just threatened with legal actions from your million euros company in public.

You can't be serious... I think I was too nice now that read it. I even took few mins to answer and you wrote a "serve yourself" message.

Really you can't be serious or I dont know who you want to manipulate, I am not psychologyst

 

[Ian Bell]

I'm really aghast at the owner animosity here guys. Honestly.

I've only posted the truth.

 

[Andy_J]

I stated ages ago that this should stop. Now I think it's too late. This will go viral. But Micas stated on No Grip that he wouldn't see that as a bad thing maybe? Publicity. Sad or what. I hope you are not doing this for publicity Ian, please tell me that is not the case. I read that Micas posted this quote on No Grip in reference to a statement saying that legal action was just silly:

"And while I'm at it, if it does make front page news.. then I would argue that a lot of people that have never heard of pCARS might now become aware of it and interested in it. It is theoretically possible that such news would increase sales."

 

[Alejandro Riveiro]

Come on. The user already apologized on the post @Klazerman mentions. So at this point there're two things left:

First, @Xosé Estrada, a thread full of inappropriate material would be deleted. Under your philosophy of freedom of speech, that shouldn't be the case. That one thread isn't really that different. You're not removing anyone's freedom of speech by removing a single thread. In fact, that's what moderation means. You moderate inappropriate threads while not censoring the topic itself.

Second, @Ian Bell, sorry, but I disagree with you about the legal threats... there's plenty more to do than retort to lawyers, etc on this case. It's not like company assets were at risk because of this, so I'm doubtful the only way to fix this when you were met with a negative to your request was to pursue that one path.

 

[Ian Bell]

We will not change the title of this banned for no reason thread indeed.

You can threat, send Micas to scare all our members via PM but it will not be changed, simple as that. We will not moderate opinions of our members just because you don't like it or fail to supply evidence.

Even after four days that is still not clear? Opinions will not be moderated until its proven that they are false claims.

​

For the 6th time, I've never sent Micas. Why you want to keep ignoring my and his statements confirming this is beyond me. I can really only assume there's some agenda that I'm unaware of.

In short, I asked you to follow your own forum rules for our thread. You refused.

 

[David Dominguez]

As I said the community can't judge the code. A question that arose from some people, why didn't you guys build just 1 or 2 cars and tweak them to perfection instead of creating placeholders which only expose existing problems in some of the assets or parameters?

Because that doesnt make money so quickly.

 

[Xosé Estrada]

I'm really aghast at the owner animosity here guys. Honestly.

I've only posted the truth.

No drama please. I said before:

I don't think you are a bad person, I don't think you are a dictator or evil, so the only reason I can find for you doing this, threatening a community, is that you want to protect your product against critics, thing that I don't share but in some way understand.

That's what I think Ian, nothing else.

 

[Ian Bell]

Come on. The user already apologized on the post @Klazerman mentions. So at this point there're two things left:

First, @Xosé Estrada, a thread full of inappropriate material would be deleted. Under your philosophy of freedom of speech, that shouldn't be the case. That one thread isn't really that different. You're not removing anyone's freedom of speech by removing a single thread. In fact, that's what moderation means. You moderate inappropriate threads while not censoring the topic itself.

Second, @Ian Bell, sorry, but I disagree with you about the legal threats... there's plenty more to do than retort to lawyers, etc on this case. It's not like company assets were at risk because of this, so I'm doubtful the only way to fix this when you were met with a negative to your request was to pursue that one path.

I tried conciliation and discussion. I posted a simple request. The crucial point is that not only were these things ignored, but the owners/admins/staff of this site were openly hostile from the off.

 

[Ian Bell]

No drama please. I said before:



That's what I think Ian, nothing else.

4th time, I've never threatened a community. I've asked the owners of a forum to afford us the same moderation as they do other forums. Nothing more.

The users can read how you both responded in the PM's. Inventing things won't change that.