[ROUND 7 TROIS-RIVIERES] DHR vs RPM

[Tom Ilsbroux]

Also mixed opinions in our vote. 30sec have won mainly because its the first corner where you have to be extra carefull with cold brakes and tyers, also Jack race was over. Pritty sure if same overtaking happened in second lap everything would be fine.

 

[Bram Hengeveld]

I find it really strange that the damage of the driver is calculated in the penalties. Imo we are reviewing the technical accidents and not the consequences.

I have so many questions every time by this weird procedure of voting:

• Jack saw Dragos coming, but still tried to keep his line and collides.
• Technically Dragos passed Jack's rear wheels, and is allowed to overtake in a safe way (yes you can debate the speed of Dragos car and give a penalty for that)

I find it really annoying that the votings are constantly done based on sentiments and not on facts. Whole teams are voting at home forums and the spokesman then bring the final conclusion here which always results in too harsh penalties.

Why do we think that drivers are good race directors? I never see any arguments that real life marshals use reviewing incidents.

Driving fast is a skill. Being a good race director is also a quality. Maybe it's time to acknowledge that

 

[David Garcia]

I find it really strange that the damage of the driver is calculated in the penalties. Imo we are reviewing the technical accidents and not the consequences.

I don´t agree there Bram. Imagine Dragos sending Jack to the grass not in the first lap but in the last lap, and Jack without damage and lossing no positions. And then compare it with what happened in the race. To me is completely diferent and the penalty should be aswell.

I have so many questions every time by this weird procedure of voting:

• Jack saw Dragos coming, but still tried to keep his line and collides.
• Technically Dragos passed Jack's rear wheels, and is allowed to overtake in a safe way (yes you can debate the speed of Dragos car and give a penalty for that)

In my point of view Jack line was already wide and safe enough as to don´t keep it. It is Dragos who breakes later than supposed too (only my opinion ).

I have so many questions every time by this weird procedure of voting:

• Technically Dragos passed Jack's rear wheels, and is allowed to overtake in a safe way (yes you can debate the speed of Dragos car and give a penalty for that)

Safe way is the key word in the second point. Possibly it was not a safe movement because he tryed the move from too far. I think Dragos would had impact on the wall without Jack being on his line.

I find it really annoying that the votings are constantly done based on sentiments and not on facts. Whole teams are voting at home forums and the spokesman then bring the final conclusion here which always results in too harsh penalties.

You are right here Bram. Team spokesman have to be a bit as a race marshall and there is no need to ask to your teammates, it is just the Team spokesman opinion what counts here. Team spokesman talks in the name of the team, was elected by his team mates to do it, so please do not ask and just post the penalty and the reason why. As rule book says judge an accident taking care of motives & consecuences.

 

[Bram Hengeveld]

Lets imagine this is a real life race ))

I am driving and chasing a fellow racer and miss my braking point a little and therefore hit the other driver from the rear and he is send into the grass and the barriers with a broken splitter as a result.

A race later he misses his braking point also and sends me into the grass on the exact same place but instead of losing my splitter I also loose an arm because of the broken windshield cuts it off completely (horrorrrr )

Will he get a stronger penalty or is the technical incident still the same?

 

[Tom Ilsbroux]

For me these inicident reports are to give a higher standard of driving and to avoid them as much as possibel. So discussing them within the team is not more then normal i find, the TS has one opinion and to ask his team if they view it sameway is a good thing in my view. If he doesn't stand behind the opinion off his team he can always react and change it (which we have done in past)
Sry but i have said this before all these reports are not viewable by the drivers, nor is the result. Which i find still totaly wrong. Nowhere is seen what the result is of an "wrong" action by a driver. So no leassons are learned which is the main goal of this. Wihtout discussion with teammates there is nothing beside the result of a penatly, a penalty which could have no concequence at all.
Also a voting done by a team makes it less personal.

just me 2cents .

Think bram has a point here though, same action can have a totaly different result.

 

[Ivo Simons]

Yes i agree that we need to post the penalties to the public after they are given.

 

[David Garcia]

Lets imagine this is a real life race ))

I am driving and chasing a fellow racer and miss my braking point a little and therefore hit the other driver from the rear and he is send into the grass and the barriers with a broken splitter as a result.

A race later he misses his braking point also and sends me into the grass on the exact same place but instead of losing my splitter I also loose an arm because of the broken windshield cuts it off completely (horrorrrr )

Will he get a stronger penalty or is the technical incident still the same?

In this case the effects on the race results would be the same with a lost splitter in both actions (OK, and an arm, but who cares? )... another (and less bloody) example would be:

A) You miss your breaking point and you send another driver to the grass, with no damage on his car and maybe a couple of lost positions.
B) You miss your breaking point and you send another driver into a wall, damaging his car & ruining his race.

The cause is almost the same, a missed breaking point. But the effect is not the same by far, and a race marshall will consider it dferent.

I mean, you remember Vettel & Hamilton going side by side on Malayisisa? Result NO PENALTY... now for a moment imagine Lewis Hamilton put his right tyres over the hydraulic material of the teams, or causing an accident on pit lane... do you really still think it should go without a penalty? (Yes in the case of Lewis SD)

So we are at same point; same cause, diferent effect.

 

[Bram Hengeveld]

A) You miss your breaking point and you send another driver to the grass, with no damage on his car and maybe a couple of lost positions.
B) You miss your breaking point and you send another driver into a wall, damaging his car & ruining his race.

But in this case the applied penalty should be the same, not?

 

[Xosé Estrada]

I'm not sure I get the point on this honestly.

For sure drivers/team spokesman might not be ideal people to deal with accidents or penalties, but neither organisers. The ideal thing would be call FIA so they send us real marshals, but take into consideration in F1 for instance they actually incorporated drivers this year to the disciplinary board because the marshals were making big mistakes when judging accidents.

I don't see the problem in having one representative of every team deciding in the accidents, I think 10 people opinion together will be always more fair than one or two persons decision, over all if they are also not specially talented people for it (are you?, I'm not, just a simracer and motorsports fan).

But if it's what you think is better I don't have problem in switch to a classical system where David and me make justice, in fact for me would be much easier as we talk by phone almost every day so we can discuss it fast and make a decision, but I though you were interested in have your opinion and decision over the rules and sportive authority.

Anyway, if you think the penalties are wrong and the system is not working, why don't you change them? :wink:, if this is not being fair is because you are not being fair, the only thing you will win with a classical system is somebody else to blame for it.

Cya!.

 

[David Garcia]

But in this case the applied penalty should be the same, not?

No in my opinion.

 

[Mike Simian]

I don't understand the problem here, the way I see it, and from what the rules are on this. When giving a penalty we take into account both the cause and the effect and then deliver a verdict.

No system will be perfect, but overall this one is/has been working to a good degree. Whats great is the verdict is debated and streamlined twice, once by the teams voting within their group and once when we get to vote here by all teams. So we come to a decision which has gone through a process which helps to eliminate wrong/too harsh/too soft descisions and we are left with (hopefully) close to the right penalty.

Personally I think its working and its a good system.

 

[Ben Tusting]

The system is fine how it is.

 

[Bram Hengeveld]

Correct me if I am wrong but when a car in EVO crashes and can't continue there is smoke coming out of the car (forced retirement). In the movie posted I don't see any smoke coming. So either the driver retired himself, or the game is bugged.

Now Dragos gets severely punished for ending Jack's race. Or did Jack end his own race by pressing escape after getting hit? This seems very significant in the outcome of the votes.

 

[Damian Henderson]

The Car was on fire, the video was made with special effects off though. It also says in the description it caused terminal damage.

 

[Ross Balfour]

@Mike: Try saying that after your team is robbed of victory twice....I think you will see a different outcome.

 

[Ivo Simons]

If you crash the car hard there is most of the time fire Bram.

 

[Bram Hengeveld]

If you crash the car hard there is most of the time fire Bram.

I know but i don't see any fire Therefore I am asking...

@Ross: i don't agree on that we are robbed of victory. If there wouldn't be an accident there was nothing to discuss.

 

[Ivo Simons]

Does take time when it starts. You remember my Incident in the RDTCC at Barcelona? That was also terminal and also catched fire just before i pressed esc. And i even waited for about 6 or 7 seconds before i did that.

 

[Tom Ilsbroux]

Like mike says no system is perfect. And i agree to an extent you have to watch the effect also.
You can't ignore a drivers race is ended by a incident versus a driver who's only lost a place. Last one maybe would not even file a report at all.
The right way is like often is somewhere in the middle.

 

[David Garcia]

To me the right way is to value what rules says, and if it was right in the begining (when we accepted and aproved the system and its meaning) it should be right now.

We ALL agreed before on next statement, didn´t we?

1.- You have to valuate the factors in the incident, cause & effect.

2.- Effect would be the damage and the lost time and positions.

3.- Cause would be the reasons that made this happen.

4.- Then you have to assess the cause of the accident and if it was a mistake, avoidable, race incident, reckless or a mix of everything... and maybe if you get it in the right direction you will make a good election when voting. You have to valuate the factors in the incident, cause & effect.

Another thing is the capacity to accept a penalty, but that is another matter. In my opinion the system is democratic, fair, and good for the series, and if there are 6 persons voting for the same option of the poll I would consider not using verbs as "robbing". It doesn´t sounds fine and doesn´t make justice.

I understand you can be sad because yu will get penalyzed, but next time it will be another team getting it.

This the reason why I was asking to don´t open a discussion on every single incident report because it can be a never ending history and it is really dificult diferent teams have the same point of view on the same accident.

So we will set some rules on the WAR forum to grant it works faster and better:

1.- INCIDENT REPORT IS POSTED BY AN STC ADMIN
2.- TEAM SPOKESMAN (Yes, only team spokesman) VOTES AND POST AN EXPLANATION OF THE REASON WHY HE VOTED FOR THAT OPTION. ONLY TEAM SPOKESMAN OF THE REPORTED TEAM CAN EXPLAIN THE REASON WHY THE ACCIDENT HAPPENED (Lag, driving mistake, whetever).
3.- THAT´s ALL. NEXT TEAM SPOKESMAN VOTING WILL NOT ARGUE ABOUT WHAT HE CONSIDERES FAIR OR NOT, HE WILL SIMPLY VOTE AND POST HIS REASONS.

** From now on it will work like this and we will take actions against the ones breaking that rules as loosing rights to vote. We can´t live with this weekly calendar and keeping on discussing an incident for years.

Thanks.